General Discussion (Model Railroader)

SpaceMouse wrote:

Can you really do ops in N-scale? I don't mean theoretically, like you've switched a few cars here and there. Do you have or know of an N-scale layout where guys come once a week and run ops?

Check out "Mississippi Valley N Scalers" with quite a few layouts and pics... 

http://mvns.railfan.net/home.html 

If you were not told up front that this was N Scale - It would take some time to figure out the actual scale being modeled - The website has apx. 50,000 hits.

Start with the Photo Gallery and these four links...

http://mvns.railfan.net/Jerryslayoutmain.htm 

http://mvns.railfan.net/graphics/Jerry2/index.htm

http://mvns.railfan.net/graphics/FredHouska/index.htm 

http://mvns.railfan.net/graphics/FredAgain/index.htm 

Dave,

I'm not sure I get what you mean by fishing. But I get that I've offended you by this post. For that I apologize.

However glib it was written, and I am guilty of that, I really could not picture ops sessions with N-scale. I could not picture myself working a pick & separating cars.

Chip,

Offended?  No.  Dumbfounded is more like it.  If you honestly can't picture operating in N scale, what business have you hocking your "Beginner's Guide to Layout Design?"  Does it show N scale as cutsey loops of track on coffee tables, or does it discount N scale altogether?  I confess that I've never read it.  But since it's been pushed at newbies by many forum members here, I sure hope it doesn't promulgate your misconceptions about N scale.

Fishing...  It's when you've already made a decision, but you're doubting yourself, so you go "fishing" for reassurance that you made the right decision.  You don't need my, or anyone else's, reassurance.

modelalaska wrote:

Chip loves discussion.  I for one like to read many of the thoughts that come out of Chip's topics.  Let him talk out loud for goodness sakes. Peter

Not for nothing, but judging by his post count no one's stopping him. 

So much about model railroading is based in technique, not in scale or size.  If you can't put a decal on straight in HO, don't expect miracles in N.  If you avoid detailing HO locomotives, then why bother worrying about whether you can do it in N?

Decaling hopper cars isn't the nightmare you make it out to be.  But it is the same relatively dull repetitive motion process that it can be in any scale.  I know, because I've tried it!  Atlas now regularly releases it's hoppers painted with dimensional data only applied, ready for the modeler to apply only his road name and reporting marks.  What a Godsend.

I'm not as wrankled about your post as Dave is, but I do get a little weary of HO gaugers pressing their noses against the glass trying to figure out why in the world anyone would choose a scale other than their own... 

Just Do It, to quote the ad.  Come on in, Chip.  The water's fine!

Lee 

SpaceMouse wrote:

But couplers and mini-decals have scared me a bit. I have before me putting 2 sets of 1/16 BPRR decals on 20 plus coal cars and I can't even imagine cutting them out let alone getting them straight on the cars.

N scale MT couplers are easy to do, the springs are bigger than the ones on HO Kadees.  My biggest problem has always been getting the cover on the box. 

wm3798 wrote:

I'm not as wrankled about your post as Dave is...

Well, Chip, you asked us to level with you.  If nothing else, I've done that!

Sorry if I sound harsh, but like Lee, I get tired of having to explain to people that the difference between HO and N scale model railroading really is...  nothing but perception.  And perception can be changed.

You're good people Chip, no matter what those people at the sheep farm say...!

After reading thru 2 pages of hemming and hawing, I'm wondering if Chip isn't looking so much for reassurance about N scale's feasibility as he is looking for someone to talk him out of it.

Chip, if I'm reading you right, it sounds to me that you're both underwhelmed and overwhelmed with this new venture and want out. IIRC, you have at least 2 other layouts in progress right now, so maybe you bit off more than you can chew at this point. I think you really need to figure out for yourself what you want to do, independent of anybody else's expectations.

Just my

I am in the process of planning a basement-sized layout. This will be completed as soon as I have found a suitable house to put it in. I model N scale and I am an operator.

The plan is to build a single level layout following the double tracked Boston line from its namesake city to Worcester, MA. The railroad will interchange with the P&W, Guilford, Grafton and Upton, Quincy Bay, Bay Colony with equipment from several other local railroads.

Part of the early planning process involved printing n-scale sized Google Earth satellite photos in full size n-scale. I have spent over a year testing DCC systems on various other railroads and actively looking for new options (I like the ESU base station, but I still haven't found a handheld that has both tactile feedback (which is needed when running ops) and a large enough info display. I am also trying to find a way to get cab signals.

All of this, my kit bashing articles in N-Scale Magazine on Boston-line specific engines, the years of research that rivals med-school... all to build a layout faithful to some random line in 1998. It has to be more then just big scenery and small trains.

Now if your question is do we have the same ops sessions that you guys do in HO, the answer in a resounding NO! We have scale-sized trains that operate twice the distances you HO versions have. In fact, we can have trains that operate on a mainline and NOT occupy two towns simultaneously. So, on that regard operations are more realistic then in HO.

Another point to ponder is just how realistic is the spaghetti bowls that are many HO layouts. Many I have seen (that focus on operations) try to fit so much in a confined space that the overall effect is ruined. Is an oil refinery capable of holding only 3 cars really realistic? Is that really hard-core ops? You'd be able to fit 12 cars in that space in N (two tracks side-by-side).

I think many HO modelers see N-trak and that is their only exposure to N scale... or worse they see our stuff next to Z and see them as the same target audience. Think of it this way. Most HO stuff is RTR. Not so in N, so we kit bash and paint. Most scale track is RTR in HO. In N we need to hand lay code 40. In HO, most new quality models come with sound.... How does that make operations more efficient?

After 8500 posts, maybe you should but the computer down and go see an N-scale club. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

daniel_leavitt2000 wrote:

Now if your question is do we have the same ops sessions that you guys do in HO, the answer in a resounding NO!

Perspective! 

QUESTION:  Why limit the possibilities by cutting back on operations by 50%?

For example, in the thread - "2 x 8 layout contest rules and guidelines" - operations perspective becomes clearer by simply reframing the same parameters...

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1341679/ShowPost.aspx 

...with the two layout size rules:  Size: 24" x 96", and; HO Scale is specified, but N Scale can used if it is scaled down to 13" x 52"...

...can actually create twice the layout-design challenge - with:  Size: 24" x 96", and; N Scale is specified, but HO Scale can used if it is scaled down to 13" x 52".

The operations perspective could also be reframed - by:  Size: 48" x 192", and; HO Scale is specified, but N Scale can used if it is scaled down to 24" x 96".

Last summer I attended the NMRA regional convention in Round Rock, Texas.  Since I am in the process of building an N-Scale layout I naturally selected the only N-Scale layout offered for the Friday night operating sessions.  I really enjoyed my three hours.  This layout was probably in a 20x25 room and my understanding is that the layout was built with operating in mind from the beginning.  The owner has operated it with a regular crew on a scheduled basis for a number of years.  Benchwork was narrow enough that manual uncoupling and turnout throws were easy to reach.  We had three trains running with two man crews (engineer and conductor) while the layout owner functioned as dispatcher.  Each conductor kept a switchlist on a clipboard and did the manual uncoupling while the engineer made the moves.  Switching occupied most of the time as we we went from town to town. I would credit the owner but his name doesn't readily come to mind. Why don't you try and find an operating N-Scale layout in your area and make a visit.

Mike B.

Daniel pointed out something critical that I was remiss in emphasizing myself, Chip.

Some aspects of N scale operation (for a given size versus HO) can be even more realistic than HO.  Train length, for example.  Even locals on a line like the Pennsy were longer than most HO mainline trains.  You can do a 20-car local in N on a door (I do it all the time!).

If you like MUing, your triple-header looks better pulling a 30-car train in N than a 15-car train in HO.

Daniel also points out the ability in N (again, for the same space relative to HO) to put more space between towns.  At scale speeds, N scale trains take longer to move between switching locations, extending the op session time.

I know I'm wearing out this phrase, and I wish I could remember who first said it to me, but it rings true to my ears:  "HO is for modeling trains; N scale is for modeling railroads."

Good luck with whatever you choose.  But at least give it a shot.

I think to some extent you have to have a longer train (in cars) to get the same visual effect as you could in HO scale. I think the visual impact is about the linear length more so then the number of cars. They discuss this in the recent Model Railroad Planning issue, but the best discussion was one in the Ian Rice book "Mid-Sized & Manageable Track Plans".

I also think that having a sparse track plan that allows for longer trains and more distance between destinations is a design decision you can make regardless of scale. All n-scale does is make your layout area relatively bigger. If you double your available space but then double your trackwork you will be back where you started except it will take twice as long to construct.

Some aspects of the layout do NOT scale. For instance.. aisle-ways, reach-in distance and the height you will need to be comfortable between two decks. Some things are harder or impossible in n-scale like installing sound in your locomotive or spiking your own rail. 

Chris