General Discussion (Model Railroader)

My thought is who cares. Maybe it's some poor person who really doesn't know what it is. Or maybe some who knows but wants to bluff a little. If some idiot wants it for a big price then more power to the seller. I find it interesting that we can discuss it here. But when it comes to emailing them then posting it here for a small laugh then it's wrong. Let them sell what they want. If I see something wrong in a listing I learned to just let it be. Just my opinion. Agree or disagree.

CNJ831 wrote:

R. T. POTEET posts: In 1949 Mantua's advertising took up the whole back page of Model Railroader; I don't have any 1950, '51, or '52 issues in my collection but by 1953 their advertisements were confined to an interior page and only one column wide. Nowhere in any of their advertising did I find reference to an all-brass model of anything; when I joined the hobby in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember that this was all-brass; I suspect that the seller has misidentified this item and, instead of a Tyco, a Varney is what is being offered for bid. I suggest that you read my article documenting the history of Mantua's Master Model Builder's locomotive series (their brass line of engines) in the July 1990 issue of RMC if you think that Mantua brass engines went out of production in 1953 or earlier. In fact, an issue of MR from early 1960 includes the final Mantua ad for a very limited run of the Goat and Belle of the Eighties. Further, I would question Varney's Northern being all-brass as late as 1962. My references indicate that it was of bronze to begin with and it's listed as being produced only between 1949 and 1951. You saw very old stock perhaps? If anything, the model in question here looks to me most like an old Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy boiler, which was also of cast bronze but which supposely went out of production around '45. CNJ831

The focus of my cited response was directed at the advertising appearing in the 1949 issues of Model Railroader Magazine and NOWHERE can I locate any mention in ads from that particular year of ALL-BRASS Mantua anythings. Nor can I locate any mention in Mantua's ads of ALL-BRASS anythings. I can only conclude from that that Mantua was no longer making ALL-BRASS locomotives - if, indeed, they ever had - I just don't know - or, if they were still in production; the lack of advertising dollars does seem to indicate that they were not energetically pursuing sale of those items.

My comment was

. . . . . . . . . . in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember it was all-brass . . . . . . . . . .

. I tried to no avail to chase one of these down in the early-'70s when I was stationed with the Air Force in Germany but none of the mail-order retailers I contacted had any left at all.

Your reference to the Knapp 4-8-2 going

. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45.

raises an interesting question: how, I ask, was Knapp able to make a cast bronze[???] locomotive; I have been under the impression that bronze was a copper alloy and the War Production Board had severe restrictions of copper usage in all but essential manufacturing during the war years. As a history major revelations such as yours sure make me feel stupid.  

R. T. POTEET wrote:

Your reference to the Knapp 4-8-2 going . . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45. raises an interesting question: how, I ask, was Knapp able to make a cast bronze[???] locomotive; I have been under the impression that bronze was a copper alloy and the War Production Board had severe restrictions of copper usage in all but essential manufacturing during the war years. As a history major revelations such as your sure make me feel stupid.

No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.

The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP.

Incidentally, the Knapp 4-8-2's dies went to Bowser in 1949, who reworked them and the loco was once again done as bronze castings up until about 1952. Thereafter, the castings were of zamac. 

CNJ831

CNJ831 wrote:

No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.

Here, here, It is always amazing to me to find that regardless now much one researches there is always some other little fact or an exception yet to be learned.

Yikes, the depth of knowledge you guys have on this stuff is purely amazing... eek... back to my medical books where I feel I at least know SOMETHING!!!

Brian

CNJ831 wrote:

No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research. The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP. CNJ831

Whatever!!!

I'm not sure just what the quibble is here; this started out as a post trying to ascertain the identity of an item listed on ebay but where it has gone goes far towards explaining why I don't buy things sight unseen; I have never bought anything off of ebay and I will never buy anything off of ebay.

The seller doesn't have the feebleist flippin' idea what he/she is selling; you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went

. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45

or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.  

8500HPGASTURBINE wrote:

My thought is who cares. Maybe it's some poor person who really doesn't know what it is. Or maybe some who knows but wants to bluff a little. If some idiot wants it for a big price then more power to the seller. I find it interesting that we can discuss it here. But when it comes to emailing them then posting it here for a small laugh then it's wrong. Let them sell what they want. If I see something wrong in a listing I learned to just let it be. Just my opinion. Agree or disagree.

I disagree. I e-mailed the seller and got the same "Thank You" response that she gave to others. Forgeting for the moment that she's advertsing somrthing which is inaccurately described at best, e-bay has a policy about excessive shipping charges. She is charging the same $40 shipping on all the stuff she has up for auction including plastic model airplanes which probably weight less than a pound. I reported her to e-bay for the excessive shipping charge. I won't even get into whether it's really a brass engine. If she had 30 or 40 sales, I might be inclined to give her a break but she's sold 177 things on e-bay. She's one of those sellers that really doesn't care what kind of profit she makes of an item, she rakes it in on shipping. Even if the engine was packed in a special box and sent insured, she's still making at least a $20 profit on shipping. E-bay doesn't approve and neither do I.

R. T. POTEET wrote:

...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went . . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45 or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.

Well...clearly you have not the slightest clue on the subject, nor obviously any background whatever in the hobby's history, a sad shortcoming all too common of this site's posts/posters. Most model railroad item production/availability dates are well documented and are not estimates nor W.A. guesses. And I certainly know the Knapp bronze 4-8-2 was produced, exactly what it looked like and its resemblance to the "Tycho" model in question...I have a Knapp example!  

CNJ831

IT LOOKS TO BE ALL BRASS to me but the solder job looks lacking, as for tyco, I've seen some strange items from their early years. Have a number of wood turntables, all by the same manufacturer and have learned you have to look in the box to get what you want as manufacturing changed as time went on. Once was looking for an item from a certain manufacturer and found out they had bought out a bunch of stuff and just put their label on it, so I had to expand my serch to another company. Con cor did this all the time.

CNJ831 wrote:

R. T. POTEET wrote: ...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went . . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45 or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.   Well...clearly you have not the slightest clue on the subject, nor obviously any background whatever in the hobby's history, a sad shortcoming all too common of this site's posts/posters. Most model railroad item production/availability dates are well documented and are not estimates nor W.A. guesses. And I certainly know the Knapp bronze 4-8-2 was produced, exactly what it looked like and its resemblance to the "Tycho" model in question...I have a Knapp example!   CNJ831

Whatever!!!!!

I don't see the $40 shipping charge.  When I pulled up the listing the shipping cost is $69+.

Are you guys sure this isn't 1 to 1 scale

someone just buy it and then you'll be able to see what it is for yourself!

(yes I'm laughing)

from the info here I will skip buying it, good luck to the bidders, if they have probs they should look to bowser as their mountain looks very close to this. Bowser has taken up other product makers like Varney and Arbour, they havent done anythiong about the arbour stuff yet.

 

Tilden wrote:

I don't see the $40 shipping charge.  When I pulled up the listing the shipping cost is $69+. Are you guys sure this isn't 1 to 1 scale

I e-mailed the seller about the shipping, and they said it was a mistake. According to the listing it was supposed to have been about $65 for shipping to my address, but they said it should actually be $14.

As much as you guys  have talked about it, one of you are gonna have to buy it, just so you can settle the argument as to just what it is!! :-)