Alclad 2 advice? AntonioFP45??

Hello SWChief, I hope this will be helpful

Reason why I jumped on this metalizing bandwagon: 

I've looked at hundreds of photos of streamlined U.S and Canadian passenger trains in Don Ball books and on the web.  Even when dirty, they almost always had a reflective shine.  

I started noticing that the silver finishes on plastic streamlined HO & N scale passenger cars just don't look realistic.  I read about various metalizing processes (foil, buffing/polishing, etc,) but was turned off.   Then I read that 2003 Model Railroader issue and "Wala! A simpler process"!  I experimented and did make some mistakes (mainly due to rushing). After slowing down my usual fast pace, the process for a klutz like me became a piece of cake. 

A. Re:  The Alclad Chrome Shine.  - Not to worry.  The key to a realistic, prototype finish is in the Clear Coat(s) .  Use Gloss Coat, whether solvent based or acrylic.  Don't use Flat. See the July or Aug 2003 Model Railroader for the Alclad on the RDCs article.

1. On my Rivorossi Diner and Coach.  I applied only one thin gloss coat of clear to each shell.  The high shine toned down immedietly to a realistic, "as delivered" appearance by Budd.

2.  For my Rivorossi Sleeper Observation lounge, I applied two thin gloss coats of clear and toned it down even more.  I compared it to the other two cars.  It resembled a car that had been on the road several years (worn a bit by the sun, but well taken care of).  The contrast is neat to see, and imho prototypical, since railroads received passenger cars over a period of years.  The key is that the clear coats should be applied "thin". 

I showed the Observation car to several prototype model railroader friends and I was surprised by all of the very positive reactions regarding the metalized finish.   

B. Re: Brown tint. 

1. Even after a few years on the road back in the 80s, the Superliners still had a stainless steel sheen that was similar to the 1950s streamlined Budd and Pullman Standard cars. 

2. Remember, often times in photographs of stainless steel cars the blue hue we may see is actually the reflection from the sky.  Brownish or Yellowish hues are often the reflections of road grime, ballast dust, clay, and in the case of western U.S trains, desert dust that is present on the cars' bodies.      

C. Base Color:

1. I've experimented with Gloss Black, Gloss Black with a slight blue tint, and Gloss Charcoal Gray.  I discovered that Gloss Charcoal Gray is an excellent  base to use for streamlined cars. I'm normally an acrylic painter, but for metalizing I prefer to use Scale Coat II.  If an acrylic is used, make certain that the gloss clear  is completely cured before applying the Alclad.       

Alclad II Stainless Steel:  I was going to buy a bottle and experiment with it, however, I've liked the results that I've gotten with the ALC 107 Chrome.  So I have not tried it yet.

But by all means, experiment and do comparisons. 

Thank you, very helpful information.  I have just a few more questions

On the gloss clear coat, is this before or after decaling?  Is Alclad glossy enough to decal straight onto?  I'd hate to get fingerprints on the metal finish while adding decals though.  If this is prior to decaling then what about sealing the decals?  And then what about blending  weathering?  Can you even weather over Alclad with chalks or light airbrush passes?

What clear coat paints do you tend to use?  Floquil?  Testors?  Other?

I like the idea of varying layers of the clear coat.  I plan to have 2 recently refurbished cars and they were noticeably shinier then the rest of the consist I'm basing this off of.  I'm using a consist I just traveled on.  It's nice to be able to make notes and take photos when you're on the real train.  Wish we could do the same for Santa Fe passenger models

Scalecoat II or other oil based paints as the primer is what I was looking into since I prefer to use oil based paints when airbrushing.  My airbrush seems harder to clean when using water based paints.

I would like to paint the interior walls appropriate colors, and may later on add actual interiors.  I'd prefer to airbrush so do you think I should do this first, then block up the windows with tape, do the gloss black on the exterior, and then add the Alclad?  I really do not want to put any tape on the Alclad, and the potential for over spray and bleeding on the perfect metal finish sounds like a no no. 

I suppose I could get both stainless steel and chrome and compare on test strips to see which looks the most like a Superliner.  How far do you think a 1 oz bottle will go?  Could it do 9 cars...8 Superliners, and one baggage car?

Almost forgot.  I've read that when airbrushing Alclad, to use brush strokes.  What does this refer to?  When I airbrush I tend to go from right to left and back again, but I've never really paid much attention to how I'm painting.  I've just developed a technique over the years and do it without much thinking.

And when I do get around to this project I'll be sure to post the progress.

On the gloss clear coat, is this before or after decaling? 

 Before decaling.

Is Alclad glossy enough to decal straight onto? 

Fingerprints will show up.  It's best to apply at least one gloss coat of clear and allow it to cure.  One can then apply the decals and seal them with more gloss clear.  It's pretty much the same procedure we use when applying decals on solid colors.  IMHO, modelers that decide to try Alclad on streamlined passenger cars will likely apply 2 to 4 coats of clear, anyway, since most of us don't want them to appear brand new.

And then what about blending  weathering? 

Once the Clear Coat is dry, you weather just as with solid colors.  In the 2003 MRR article the author did a beautiful weathering job on his RDCs, including rust streaks on the stepwell.   

What clear coat paints do you tend to use?  Floquil?  Testors?  Other?

I've switched over to Badger Modelflex and Polly Scale Clears as I dislike fumes.  I did use Floquil Clear on one of my Metroliners. Results were good with both Solvent based and Acrylic based clears.  

I like the idea of varying layers of the clear coat.  I plan to have 2 recently refurbished cars and they were noticeably shinier then the rest of the consist I'm basing this off of.  I'm using a consist I just traveled on.  It's nice to be able to make notes and take photos when you're on the real train.  Wish we could do the same for Santa Fe passenger models [V]

Ah, good! An opportunity for experimenting.  Whether you decide to use Chrome or Stainless Steel, try doing 2 shells at the same time for comparison. After metalizing and allowing cure time, Apply 1 or 2 clear coats to both shells (decal after the 1st coat).  Then on one of the shells add more clear coats.  Walk away for an hour or so, then come back and judge the effect.  You may decide that you want to tone down the sheen on one or both cars even more, or leave as is.  Walking away is important because you've gotten so used to staring at them during the spraying process that you won't notice the "subtle" differences.  

I would like to paint the interior walls appropriate colors, and may later on add actual interiors.  I'd prefer to airbrush so do you think I should do this first, then block up the windows with tape, do the gloss black on the exterior, and then add the Alclad?  I really do not want to put any tape on the Alclad, and the potential for over spray and bleeding on the perfect metal finish sounds like a no no.   Remember, the tape would actually be applied on top of the "Clear", not the Alclad.  If the clear is cured, should be no problem. I prefer to pay just a little extra and use the 3M 233+ series masking tape.  It's bright green in color and uses a gentler adhesive formula than the standard beige 3M tape. Less prone to lifting paint off.  Tamiya also makes an excellent masking tape.

On my interiors I only brush paint the vertical spaces between the windows. Funny thing is that once the painted interior and the window glass is installed, you can barely see the walls above & below the windows. When we run trains, most of us are looking down at them from a "low flying helicoptor view" instead of at eye level. I prefer to paint my interior first as mistakes inside are much less visible.  On my observation car, I brush painted those sections a dark tan color (Florida East Coast Railroad). 

I suppose I could get both stainless steel and chrome and compare    on test strips to see which looks the most like a Superliner.  How far do you think a 1 oz bottle will go?  Could it do 9 cars...8 Superliners, and one baggage car? 

It does depend on technique and air pressure.  Alclad recommends 15 psi.  I use between 10 and 15 psi with a fine needle (#1).  On my first Alclad job in 2004, I sprayed at 20 psi and wasted most of the bottle on one shell and got a rough finish. 

Lesson learned:  Read the instructions and heed the tips.  Now I can spray 3 to 4 shells with a smooth finish.  That's inspite that my Paasche VL is no longer in top condition due to my dropping it twice on top of concrete  (klutz! )  When I pickup my new Badger, I'm expecting to be able stretch a bottle even more. 

Almost forgot.  I've read that when airbrushing Alclad, to use brush strokes.  What does this refer to?  When I airbrush I tend to go from right to left and back again, but I've never really paid much attention to how I'm painting.  I've just developed a technique over the years and do it without much thinking. 

It's pretty easy.  Instead of long, slow strokes with a wide fan, use a small fan (double action) and use slightly quicker long strokes. Distance should be close (1" to 2 1/2").   I always start from the shell's bottom to the roof top, then I gently turn the paint stand around and continue from the roof to the bottom of the opposite side. Without rushing, it takes me about 15 seconds per coat. But don't take this as gospel.  Each modeler develops his/her technique with practice.

Again, after applying the metalizer don't touch the shell.  If any lint or trash lands on the surface remove by blowing off or with tweezers. 

I just finished a B-29 model in1:48 scale with Model Masters "steel". I picked it for its slightly brown sheen which my photos of the real thing showed. I airbrushed on about four coats then a coat of testors clear lacquer. Then decals and then two more light coats of clear lacquer. I may have gotten away with something as I read on the spray can not to use it over high sheen metals such as AL,Cu Etc.Steel wasn't mentioned. You could PM me if you want to see the results or just check the B-29 thread I posted on FSM a week or so ago.

Here's an example of stainless steel appearance on prototype U.S trains:

 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=156634

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=493

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=143529  ~Even though it's dusty, notice how the stainless steel on the lead car looks "blue" because of the sky.

 

Here's a shot of some SCL Budds just 2 years before Amtrak

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=75989

Might as well throw this one in, just in case people have forgotten how great an all-Budd consist is! http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=171319&nseq=52

 

We use chrome paints quite regularly in the restoration process of diecast cars. I highly recommend reading this tuitorial. There are numerous points made above that are almost self-defeating - especially regarding the base coat and clear coats. Again, this tuitorial is geared towards restoring the chrome plating on cars, but the process is the same. When done properly, the results are spectacular - check out the pics ....

http://pages.prodigy.net/mar-ste/restorationchrome.html

Mark.

Mark, by all means please list which points that are "self defeating".  

Keep in mind that unlike model diecast cars, we are not trying to achieve an "ultra-chrome-spit polish" appearance that is seen on the link you provided. That would make our passenger cars look extremely "toy-like". (BTW: I am a hot rod nut as well )

We are trying to simulate the surfaces seen on prototype Budd, Pullman Standard, and ACF corrugated streamlined passenger cars.  So far these simple steps have worked for a number of modelers and the results speak for themselves in the MRR article I mentioned above. 

If one wishes to use a "non" scale model clearcoat product, Future Floor Finish is a better deal pricewise and easier to use than Min-Wax as it does not require thinning.

First, let me say you are not doing it "wrong" if the end result you get is what you are after. My self-defeating comment was towards the people who haven't used this stuff as much as we have and are not fully aware of the physical properties of the stuff.

Alclad II requires a solvent sensitive base coat to allow the chrome paint to etch itself to, this prevents the chrome paint from rubbing off easily. An acrylic base will not provide sufficient adhesion for the Alclad II and you'll find the metallic particles will not adhere fully to the surface. The base coat also needs to be as smooth and clean as possible to attain the metallic appearance. This just doesn't apply to the Alclad II Chrome, but all the metal finishes.

After the Alclad dries, there WILL be some particles not fully etched to the surface and may cause a dull blotchiness. Take your part and very, very gently using some warm running water, a soft toothbrush, and some liquid dish detergent wash your part all over and then rinse it.  Immediately after rinsing take a soft cloth,  and just gently dry/buff your part.

At this point, you will have the desired finish intended whether it's chrome, stainless steel or whatever you are using. Clearcoating over Alclad II is always a gamble. ANY solvent based clear will cause the fine mtallic particles to become dislodged from their surface and reorintate themselves in the clear which affects the effect of the metallic look. An acryllic clear like Future will not cause the metallic particles to re-surface, and the orientation of the metallic particles will be for the most part unaffected. Once the Future has set, the Alclad II is now sealed and you can proceed to decal and clear with whatever final finish you desire.

These methods should be strictly adhered to to attain the best possible finish as intended. as for spraying Alclad II, use a PSI between 40-50 lbs when spraying the chrome paint.  The higher PSI allows for a finer smoother coating.

Now then, we as model railroaders seldom use things as they were intended !!! By doing things "wrong" often times results in the desired effect we were ultimately after. For someone starting new with using Alclad II, this experimental process can be a long drawn out affair. I've gone through numerous bottles of this stuff learning the best way. I've found, that instead of changing the base colors and clearcoats trying to achieve the desired results, it was much smarter (and ultimately more durable) to apply the Alclad II properly, and then apply extremely thin tinted clearcoats to achive the variances caused by weathering and time. It was mentioned that the passenger cars have what appears to be either a blue or brown tint. This is more likely the result of the environment the car is viewed in rather than the metallic "color" itself. These tints are easy to replicate using transparent colors in the final clearcoat.

Man, I could go on and on ....

Again, I'm not discrediting all the information you've given, you've obviously worked with this stuff as long as I have and know the pitfalls. I'm just stating for the new guys to this stuff, do it "by the book" to start with - experiment as you go and understand the stuff. 

 

Thanks for the thread and info. I already dug out the MR article mentioned below and one also in MR by Andy Spendino (sorry Andy; I forgot spelling).

I need to upgrade my Zephyr cars, and am considering alclad. Meanwhile, I obtained BLI CZ cars. better than others but a little yellowish.

Happy Model Railroading

Mark,

Thanks for the information you posted.  I have to disrespectfully disagree regarding the air pressure.  According to my experiments as well as Alclad's recommendations........lower air pressure with a narrow fan on the air brush works exceptionally well.  .

I still prefer acrylics for solid color and weathering jobs but on the last two passenger cars that I metalized I applied solvent based Scale Coat II Gloss Black as the base. I was very satisfied with the results.    I've used acrylics on other metalizing jobs as well to experiment as there are some modelers that prefer to use acrylics only. The finishes were just as glossy.  

I must admit that for me the advantage the solvent based Scale Coat II has is that, properly thinned, it's a one step process and it cures quickly.  For now I'm going to continue using SC II for metalizing bases.