General Discussion

Simon Reed:

Bealieu - the SW1001 owned by Hanson Aggregates at Merehead Quarry is reported to be due for replacement soon, a development being keenly watched by the new owners of the S1!

Tulyar - I've not heard anything about the import and regauging of 121's. Many have been broken up recently and with Dublin's Inchicore works likely to contract in size soon more will be on their way. The ITG have staked a claim on at least one of the survivors (124 and 134).

Regauging would'nt really be a big job, depending primarily on the truck mounts/bearers compatibility with standard gauge B-B trucks available in the UK.     

 I'm a bit late responding to this post owing to the long period between posts and my own preoccupations but it is probably worth pointing out that as long as there aren't any clearance restrictions that affect the use of the original bogie frames, you could just fit new axles with wheels at standard gauge spacing.

In Australia, we have to do this all the time, particularly in Victoria where locomotives were exchanged between 1600 mm (5'3") and 1435mm (4'8-1/2") frequently. All Victorian standard gauge locomotives used broad gauge bogie frames and they are all EMD units many with identical D77 motors to the Irish EMDs. The Victorian bogies are designed to allow brake gear to be hung in both locattions for the two gauges, but it should be possible to adapt the Irish bogies to match the brake shoes to the wheels in the standard gauge position.

The existing wheels, bearings, "bull" gear and traction motor can be re-used without alteration on the existing bogie frame. The only cost would be the new axles, and drawings for these which would directly suit the Irish boges could be obtained from EDI Rail, the Australian EMD licence holder, and the adaptation of the brake gear, which at 3.25" per side couldn't be too hard..

The 121 was built to standard EMD export dimensions, so I'd doubt that there would be serious clearance problems in the UK as long as the steps and buffer beam were checked and trimmed back if necessary. The cab roof might need to be lowered slightly for the standard BR profile, but nothing dramatic.

I've always had a soft spot for the 121 class, particularly in their original grey and yellow colours. I think they were the only GL8 type built for standard gauge or larger and they were GL8 W4 with full size standard gauge motors (which were always intended to fit within USA standard gauge wheel back to back spacing).

M636C

Isambard:

Google "Toronado British Steam Locomotive" and you'll find a flood of references. £3 million and 18 years to produce the first mainline steam locomotive in Britain in 40 years, a Gresley A1 Pacific (4-6-2) design.

     Another question:  When reading about this locomotive on British websites, why is the speed described in miles per hour?  Wouldn't the local measure be kilometers per hour?

Before I attempt to answer Murphy's questions, I'd just like to clear up one point. The new pacifici is a Peppercorn design, not Gresley. The Peppercorn A1 Pacifics were introduced in 1949, just after nationalisation to the design of Alfred H. Peppercorn. Peppercorn was the London & North Eastern Railway's final Chief Mechanical Engineer; Gresley was the first, from the companys inception at the 1923 grouping (when the UK govt shied away from nationalising the railways and instead merged them into 4 regional comapnies) until his death in 1941. For further details of the Gresley and Peppercorn Pacifics I recommend a visit to this site: http://www.lner.info/index.shtml

 As to the question of why do it: the group felt  the fact that none of the Peppercorn A1 had been preserved left a gap in preservation, so they set about the task of building a new one from scratch! I think they've benefited from havin the right contacts in engineering to know what can be made and where. I this has helped convince key donors that the project was both feasible and worthwhile. From a more practical point of view, as the locomotive is new they've taken the view that it can run at speeds of up to 90mph on the main lines and at all stages in the project they have kept up a dialogue with the relevant authorities.

 Many of our preserved locos are getting old and a point may be reached when it becomes too costly to keep them running. This point has already been reached with "Green Arrow" the very popular Gresley V2 2-6-2 which after not only 30 years service on the LNER and BR but also a very active retirement (it's been a regular main line runner since BR starting allowing steam specials in the 1970's) it is now worn out. Hopefully the new A1 will be able to fill this gap.

 The success of this project has already resulted in a number of other new build projects being started to fill other gaps in preservation; examples include the Bluebell Railway's construction of a new London, Brighton and South Coast Railway 'Atlantic', a project to build a new BR Class 6 'Clan' Pacific and the Great Western Society's "Saint" project to re-create a Saint class loco that can run as either a 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 as the real ones did in Edwardian times.

Thanks for that correction and that information Tulyar. I should have known better - a senior's moment is my excuse.

I inherited an brass HO 0-4-0T old time american-style logging locomotive, about 45 years old, nicely painted in maroon and black and with nameplates on each side bearing the name "A.H. Peppercorn" . It took me some time to research its background and who Peppercorn was. The original owner I determined was a Brit, and obviously had a sense of humour in bestowing Peppercorn's name on this litlle locomotive, built from a Ken Kidder kit.

I certainly hope to see Toronado on my next trip to the UK.

I popped over to Bristol the other day. The 3 class 37's that have been stored at Barton Hill depot have gone. I wonder if they've been scrapped, sold or re-instated. I know EWS have reinstated some 37/4's lately but I think the three at Bristol were either 37/5's or 37/7s.

My brother has loaded more pics on his site at www.roscalen.com

 I had an enjoyable day on the Pathfinder "Great Eastern  Western" tour last month which featured D1015 "Western Champion" reaching Norwich and Great Yarmouth. On each leg she gained time!

I joined the Pathfinder “Great Eastern Western” tour at London Liverpool St. The tour started from Swindon behind an EWS Class 67, one of the ‘Royal’ ones, 67 005 “Queen’s Messenger”, at 06:48. To be sure of catching it I would have had to catch the 05:55 train from Chippenham, whereas by staying with a relative who lives near Gatwick airport I was able to get up at a slightly more sociable hour.

Departure from Liverpool St was on time at 09:50 behind D1015 “Western Champion”. We headed down the Seven Sisters loop line to Bishop’s Stortford and thence to Cambridge and Ely. At the latter we were booked to stop just to change crews but as we arrived there ten minutes early we were allowed to get off and take photos.

From Ely we proceeded to Wymondham where those who wished to have an extended visit to Norwich were provided with a bus; one or two local enthusiasts also joined the train as we then proceeded to Great Yarmouth via the Norwich avoiding curve past Crown Point depot and then via the infrequently used Berney Arms branch.

Arrival at Great Yarmouth was punctual but here we hit on the only snag of the day. We ran into Platform 2, at the end of which is a crossover controlled by a ground frame, released by the signal box. This is to enable locomotives to run round trains, however the Class 52 “Western” diesel loco was only just able to fit in between the point and the buffers. When the guard got the release from the signalman he was able to change the points but not to re-apply the facing point lock. After a few minutes he decided to wedge and clamp the points. The driver drove very gingerly over the point but happily without incident. The guard was then able to normalise the point and FPL and lock the ground frame – all of which I captured on video!

We returned to Norwich via Acle and arrival there was right time. The loco then propelled its stock to Crown Point for cleaning and we had a break of two hours in Norwich. There was also a steam hauled charter hauled by “Sir Nigel Gresley” there. It was very busy due to Norwich City FC being at home to Charlton Athletic, and extra DMU’s were provided to strengthen some of the local trains. We were warned to beware of the Charlton Fans but I don’t recall seeing any; local “Canaries” fans were much in evidence but good humoured.

Like the steam special, our departure from Norwich was ten minutes late. Nevertheless a good run ensued and arrival at Braintree, where we were due to stop for ten minutes “for pathing reasons” was ten minutes early! Instead we continued on straight away to Liverpool Street with the result that our arrival there was 20 minutes early! A fitting end to an enjoyable day out in East Anglia, on some lines still signalled with semaphores.

Great to hear the Western's in good nick.

But Braintree?? Did you mean Witham?

Martin 

Yes, you're right, I did mean Witham (Essex). Slip of the keyboard!

We are in the stew. With added dumplings.

6 of the passenger "franchises" (sorry management contracts) are deep in the mire and the good ole British taxpayer will bail them out (again).

Murphy Siding - ref: kilometers (kilometres - depending where you are of course). We still deal in the Original Imperial over here and the European Union has now abandoned its attempt to make us go metric.

I am therefore off for a pint.  

To add more clarity to the franchise problem it is thought that a number of the franchises will have trouble meeting their financial obligations.  When each franchise is tendered the bidder agrees the level of subsidy or payment for each year of the franchise.  In most cases passenger numbers and fares were expected to increase over time and therefore either the subsidy progressively reduces or the franchise payment to the government increases.

With the recession people are now travelling less - a commuter with no job doesn't need his season ticket and comapnies are cutting back on business travel, so the growth predictions are proving optimistic and the franchise companies are running out of money and are seeing if they can abandon their obligations.

The added problem is that most of the big operators now have several franchises each and the rule is that if they abandon one of them as loss making then they loose the right to operate the others! 

Interesting times!!

cogloadreturns:

Murphy Siding - ref: kilometers (kilometres - depending where you are of course). We still deal in the Original Imperial over here and the European Union has now abandoned its attempt to make us go metric.

I am therefore off for a pint.  

Hahaha, you'll get used to it someday. You survived decimalisation of the pound too.

I get you on the pint though here it refers to a beer and not it's size.

Still, it seems the UK has run into another set of problems with the franchises. Be interesting to find out what the contracts say and how the problems are solved. Shutting down other franchises of a company because said company wants to hand in 1 franchise contract is not very efficient. I wonder how it is done elsewhere here in Europe.

cogloadreturns:

We are in the stew. With added dumplings.

6 of the passenger "franchises" (sorry management contracts) are deep in the mire and the good ole British taxpayer will bail them out (again).

Murphy Siding - ref: kilometers (kilometres - depending where you are of course). We still deal in the Original Imperial over here and the European Union has now abandoned its attempt to make us go metric.

I am therefore off for a pint.  

I think that a more revealing question for me is probably why the US gallon is smaller than the Imperial gallon which I assume did make the journey across the pond with the "founding fathers" only to be changed at some future time to become the, smaller, local US measure.

Cheers

Bruce

For the last three Sundays I've visited the steam galas at various preserved railways. First of all, the Severn Valley Gala where I spent the day at Arley filming the trains. It was just like being on a main line station with three Pacifics in action - "Duke of Gloucester", "Sir Nigel Gresley" and "Oliver Cromwell". For once the SVR managed to match the right loco and coaches. It was great to "Gresley" on a set of LNER varnished teak carriages.

Then to the Mid-Hants. For me the star attraction was "Lord Nelson". Bulleid Pacifics are two a penny these days but Lord Nelson is a bit different, with his 8 beats per revoiution. Also there was 130 year old Beattie 2-4-0T from Quainton Road; I've now seen both surviving Beatties in steam.

Finally this Sunday I went to the Great Central's 1960's gala. Visiting  NER Q6 0-8-0 was running,and I had it for haulage, along with the O4 2-8-0,  8F #48305 and BR 2 2-6-0 78019. The GC is one of the few lines where you can still go in the shed. Inside were nearly finished LNER N2 0-6-2T, already looking good in apple green, #30777 "Sir Lamiel" (a King Arthur class 4-6-0) and various other locos under restoration. Also running were three diesels including the orange class 31 and a DMU. With its double track section I think the GC is really going places now.

Simon Reed:

Those who have followed this thread along it's long and tortuous journey may recall that I was involved in an attempt to resurrect an ALCo S1 at Railworld, Peterborough.

For various reasons this project was abandoned.

To recap, Five ALCo S1's were imported to the UK in 1949/50 to work in the Port Talbot Steelworks complex. They were retired in the early 1980's and three of them (801,803 and 804) entered preservation.

The historical signifance of these loco's cannot be overlooked - other than the few prototypes built by the LMS and SR these were the first big diesel loco's to operate in the UK, and predated large scale dieselisation in the UK by ten years.

It could be argued that their longevity and robustness was an indictment of the step missed by British Railways in failing to look to the established US market when embarking upon their scattergun dieselisation process.

Certainly they were the only US built standard gauge diesels in the UK until the "59's" arrived in 1986.

The good news is that some of those who were involved with me in the Peterborough project have now bought one of the other three - 801. The loco is shortly to be moved to Longhoughton, Northumberland and it's long term home is proposed to be the Aln Valley Railway.

It's owners have every intention of restoring it to operational condition as time and resources allow.

Should anyone want any more information please contact me. Although I have no share in the loco I have every intention of assisting the owners in any way I can, because I'd love to hear a McIntosh and Seymour 539 chugging through Northumbria!    

May I correct you slightly, the project to restore 804 at Railworld has not been Abandoned, working with the ALco group who have bought 801 a dedicated group of people are restoring 804. Last weekend 804's power unit was freed up and turned over using the batteries off 801. We are hoping that together with the lads from 801, we can perform miracles that they have done with 801 on 804, within weeks we should have 2 working S1 ALco's in the UK. 801 moved under it's own power just weeks ago as can be seen on youtube. Watch this space for 804's faltering steps.

Dave