Electronics and DCC

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Last post 05-15-2008 8:36 AM by BlueHillsCPR. 438 replies.
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05-24-2005 10:16 AM In reply to
Offline n2mopac
Top 500 Contributor
Joined on 02-19-2001
Sedalia, MO
Posts 1,388

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Sorry I'm a little behind here, but here is one question. Assuming each block is train length, couldn't a person simply wire the bulb into a feeder from the main bus to the track and forgo the 3rd bus wire. I know this may go againsy your standard of supplying feeders to every track section, Joe, but theoretically will this not work?

Ron
05-24-2005 10:52 AM In reply to
Offline jfugate
Top 100 Contributor
Joined on 01-05-2002
Portland, OR
Posts 3,140

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Ron:

Yes, that would work, assuming there is only one track feeder to the train block, and it has an 1156 bulb in it.
05-24-2005 12:01 PM In reply to
Offline mark_in_utah
Not Ranked
Joined on 03-21-2005
Posts 408

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

This is very good information, and applies to both DCC and non-DCC layouts. Keep it coming! It's especially appropriate for guys like me that are building a new layout and getting ready to lay track by this weekend!

Mark in Utah
05-24-2005 3:31 PM In reply to
Offline jfugate
Top 100 Contributor
Joined on 01-05-2002
Portland, OR
Posts 3,140

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

TOPIC THIS POST: All about DCC friendly turnouts

So what's the big deal with DCC Friendly turnouts anyway? Actually, it's all about shorting the track, and the most common place a short can occur on a layout is at turnouts.


(click to enlarge)

A DCC friendly turnout is a turnout with less chance of a short if something doesn't track right. And a DCC friendly turnout can be a key component of good short management, in addition to the 1156 bulb we've already discussed.


(click to enlarge)

Any time I've seen the DCC friendly turnout discussion come up on boards and forums, there's always a lot of talk about the points end of the turnout, but I don't think that's the real issue. More derailments happen at the frog end of the turnout, and it's also the more likely place you'll see a short.


(click to enlarge)

So to focus on the frog end, you have two basic choices with how you handle the frog – live (powered) frog or dead (unpowered) frog.


(click to enlarge)

In both cases, the frog is generally isolated with gaps (unless you use the turnout to do power routing). If you look at a live frog turnout, the polarity of the power to the frog is based on the position of the points.


(clcik to enlarge)

But with a live frog turnout, if you run through the turnout from the frog end with it thrown against you, you will get a short. And we don't like shorts on a DCC layout!


(clcik to enlarge)

By contrast, with a dead frog turnout, you expect the other wheels of the loco NOT on the frog to pickup the power. Most modern locos have all-wheel pickup and a dead frog is not an issue. Only if you have extremely short wheelbase locos will you have a problem with dead frog. I model the 1980s SP, so dead frogs work fine for me.

I spoke with Gary Siegel recently (owner of the wonderful L&N layout covered in MR back in the late 90s) and asked him which he was using: live frogs or dead frogs? Like me, Gary started out using live frogs but has now gone to dead frogs.

As to the pros and cons of live frog versus dead frog ...

LIVE FROG
Advantages:
  • No dead spots in the track
  • When entering a turnout thrown against you from the frog end, the train stops (shorts) preventing a derailment.
Disadvantages:
  • Need contacts to route power reliably to the frog, which is more work since using the points alone is not reliable over time.
  • A short on a DCC layout during “normal operations” is generally BAD.

DEAD FROG
Advantages:
  • Easy to do – no extra wiring
  • No short if the turnout is thrown against you – you just go on the ground like the prototype ( which can about 10% of the time cause a short ... so nothing's perfect).
Disadvantages:
  • Dead spots in the track can be bad
  • May have to cut gaps around the frog – which means more work.

WHAT I PREFER
I prefer dead frog turnouts. Modern all-wheel pickup diesels don't even notice them, although some older steamers without all wheel pickup may have trouble, as well as really short wheelbase locos.

You can get dead frog DCC friendly turnouts from several sources today:
  • Atlas code 83 Super -Switch (#4, #6, or #8)
  • Peco insulfrogs
  • MicroEngineering turnouts
  • Walthers/Shinohara DCC Friendly models (although in high demand so are often out of stock)
Older Shinohara/Walthers turnouts need modification to be made DCC friendly.


(clcik to enlarge)

Here's a photo of a Shinohara/Walthers old-style turnout that's been modifed to be DCC friendly (this turnout was recycled from an earlier layout, which is why it looks kind of grungy).

Study the photo and you can see what was done to make it DCC friendly.
  • Replace the throwbar with a printed-circuit (PC) board throwbar. Remove the foil from the center of the throwbar so you don't short the two points. The foil under the stock rail helps conduct power to the nearby point so you don't rely on point contact alone for them to get power.
  • Attach each point to its closure rail with half a rail joiner. This makes the point the same polarity as its closure rail, which minimizes the chance for a short at the point end if there is ever a derailment there.
  • Solder a PC tie under the closure rails, to route power from the stock rails to the closure rails. Remove the foil in the middle of this PC tie so you don't short the two closure rails together.
  • Cut gaps around the frog, and fill the gaps with black or gray styrene plastic glued in place with superglue. Leave the frog unpowered.
If you modify an older turnout as shown, even if you get a derailment at a turnout, you will only infrequently also get a short.

WHAT IF I NEED TO USE LIVE FROG?
If you do need to use live frog turnouts, then put an 1156 bulb in the feeder wire to the frog. This way, if you do happen to get a short from running the turnout the wrong way, only the one who gets the short will be affected by it – not the whole power district or layout.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Programming loco decoders

05-25-2005 12:42 AM In reply to
Offline electrolove
Top 200 Contributor
Joined on 02-13-2005
Sweden
Posts 2,112

Angry [:(!] RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Joe:

Thanks for the great clinic. One question for you. Whalthers/Shinohara DCC friendly turnouts, can they be used right out of the box without problems?
05-25-2005 3:42 AM In reply to
Offline jfugate
Top 100 Contributor
Joined on 01-05-2002
Portland, OR
Posts 3,140

Angry [:(!] RE: RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

Joe:

Thanks for the great clinic. One question for you. Whalthers/Shinohara DCC friendly turnouts, can they be used right out of the box without problems?


Yes, that's the beauty of all the DCC friendly turnouts listed. You just install them, solder track feeders to the stock rails, and you're done.
05-25-2005 4:26 AM In reply to
Offline electrolove
Top 200 Contributor
Joined on 02-13-2005
Sweden
Posts 2,112

Angry [:(!] RE: RE: RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Thanks Joe for your quick answer. [:D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

Joe:

Thanks for the great clinic. One question for you. Whalthers/Shinohara DCC friendly turnouts, can they be used right out of the box without problems?


Yes, that's the beauty of all the DCC friendly turnouts listed. You just install them, solder track feeders to the stock rails, and you're done.

05-25-2005 9:28 AM In reply to
Offline n2mopac
Top 500 Contributor
Joined on 02-19-2001
Sedalia, MO
Posts 1,388

Angry [:(!] RE: RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Ron:

Yes, that would work, assuming there is only one track feeder to the train block, and it has an 1156 bulb in it.



Great! One more question (I think this was addressed above, but I can't find it). Is there a limit to the number of bulbs you can wire into a layout. I, for example, am presently laying the main that I intend to power with MRC's Prodigy Advance. It comes with a 2.5 amp power supply and I intend to run a 5 amp booster as the main progresses. What would be the maximum number of blocks/bulbs that I could use with such a setup, and how do I figure that number. (I know just enough about electronics to make me REALLY dangerous.)

Thanks again for all your insight. This is all very timely and helpful to me as I am constructing my new layout right now and am venturing into DCC for the first time on it. Thanks again.

Ron
05-25-2005 9:44 AM In reply to
Offline rrinker
Top 25 Contributor
Joined on 02-14-2002
Reading, PA
Posts 7,590

Angry [:(!] RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

You can theoretically have as many blocks and light bulbs as you want. Want a block every foot? Go ahead. But the return on investment (not to mention the truckload of light bulbs you would need) isn't going to be very good. Make the blocks too big, and you end up having more trains in the area than the light bulbs support, so they start lighting up and slowign down the trains. That's why the idea of a 'train length' block is as close to ideal as you can get. One train won't trigger the bulbs unless there really is a short.
The output capacity of the DCC system doesn't really have anything to do with how many blocks you can create, only with how many of those blocks can be filled with trains at one time.

--Randy
05-25-2005 7:33 PM In reply to
Offline Bullitt406
Not Ranked
Joined on 05-17-2005
Colorado
Posts 29

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

What about Atlas Custom Line versus Super Switch. Any difference between those other than appearance?

Josh
05-25-2005 7:54 PM In reply to
Online selector
Top 10 Contributor
Joined on 02-06-2005
Vancouver Island, BC
Posts 14,889

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Randy, or Joe ( or an electrical engineer who is reading), I understand Randy's response, and it makes sense. Just for my edification, is there an exponential relationship involved? I ask this because the light bulb will be drawing current all the while if it is ever going to draw current. So, is the draw inversely proportional to ....what, resistance? Help me to appreciate what the bulb is doing when it is not protecting the booster and locos during normal running.
05-25-2005 9:11 PM In reply to
Offline rrinker
Top 25 Contributor
Joined on 02-14-2002
Reading, PA
Posts 7,590

Angry [:(!] RE: RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bullitt406

What about Atlas Custom Line versus Super Switch. Any difference between those other than appearance?

Josh


As far as i can tell, exactly the same. When the Super Track Code 83 first came out, the Custom Line was the previous revision, not nearly as nice in appearance as the latest versions are. I think Atlas included a bit of what they came up with for the Super Track when they redesigned the Custom Line stuff - at least the Code 83.
Electrically, they are the same.

--Randy
05-25-2005 9:14 PM In reply to
Offline rrinker
Top 25 Contributor
Joined on 02-14-2002
Reading, PA
Posts 7,590

Angry [:(!] RE: RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Randy, or Joe ( or an electrical engineer who is reading), I understand Randy's response, and it makes sense. Just for my edification, is there an exponential relationship involved? I ask this because the light bulb will be drawing current all the while if it is ever going to draw current. So, is the draw inversely proportional to ....what, resistance? Help me to appreciate what the bulb is doing when it is not protecting the booster and locos during normal running.


Acting like a resistor, a low value one. There are devices called Negative Temperature Coefficient Resistors (NTC) that would work the same as the light bulbs, if the proper values can be found. But they cost more than 1156 bulbs.

--Randy
05-25-2005 9:58 PM In reply to
Online selector
Top 10 Contributor
Joined on 02-06-2005
Vancouver Island, BC
Posts 14,889

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Acknowledged, Randy, and thx.
05-25-2005 11:36 PM In reply to
Offline jfugate
Top 100 Contributor
Joined on 01-05-2002
Portland, OR
Posts 3,140

RE: FORUM CLINIC: Twelve years experience using DCC

Great answers, Randy -- thanks!
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