General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I give up. I can't get these turnouts to maintain good electrical contact. I have a pair of Walthers #8 RH turnouts which form a crossover on my doubletrack mainline. These were among the very first turnouts I installed on the mainline and I selected these because I wanted #8s and Atlas had not yet come out with their #8s. I didn't have a lot of problems with them early on but up to now, I hadn't used the crossover very often because I had mainly been just running trains and hadn't really begun full fledged operations. This crossover is vital because it allows the way freight to work both sides of the track and also execute runaround moves. While these were among the first turnouts installed, they are the last to get ballasted. I recently ballasted just the one turnout of the crossover and when I began to test the operation, that's when the trouble began.

Using a diesel switcher to test, it consistently stalled when passing over the turnouts. I cleaned the track and got my voltage meter out to locate where I was losing power. These turnouts are designed to route power only to the track that the turnout is alligned to. My voltage meter told me I was not getting power to the rails that formed the frog. Through further testing, I determined that the point rail apparently was not making a solid electrical connection with the fixed rail which apparently needs to happen. I found that by applying light pressure to the throwbar with my finger, I could establish an electrical connection, but obviously this is not a practical solution. Visually, the points seem to be making solid contact with the fixed rail, but obviously, it is not making a good electrical connection.

The problem is sporadic. Neither of the turnouts works 100% reliably nor fails every time. What I have found is that the ballasted turnout fails more often when it is alligned to the straight track while the unballasted one tends to fail more often when it is alligned for the crossover. I checked the ballasted turnout to make sure there was no loose ballast or excess glue that might be preventing good contact and this shouldn't even be an issue with the unballasted turnout. The points on the ballasted rail are inside a cut leading into a tunnel so it is hard to get a good look at the inside of the fixed rail but I can get a good look at the unballasted one and I see nothing obvious.

At this point, I am stymied. I've tried everthing I can think of and it will be a major blow if I have to tear these things out. Not only is there the expense replacing the turnouts but I will mess up a lot of good scenery in the process that I have a lot of hours invested in.  I do know one thing. If I have to replace them, I will be replacing them with Atlas turnouts. They might not be the greatest looking but I've never had a problem such as this with Atlas.

jecorbett:

While these were among the first turnouts installed, they are the last to get ballasted. I recently ballasted just the one turnout of the crossover and when I began to test the operation, that's when the trouble began.

Yup, balast is a turnouts worst enemy.  Our club no longer ballasts turnouts around the points area. No one seems to notice.

These turnouts are designed to route power only to the track that the turnout is alligned to. My voltage meter told me I was not getting power to the rails that formed the frog. Through further testing, I determined that the point rail apparently was not making a solid electrical connection with the fixed rail which apparently needs to happen.

What mechanizm are you using to throw the turnout?  Can it be tightened up?  If using stall motors such as Tortoise you could use heavier piano wire.  If you are using some sort of mechanical linkage can you change the "lever" to provide more torque to the points?  Does the turnout throwing mechanizm have electrical contacts in it (like Tortoise)?  If so just power the frog rails directly from that.   There are some turnouts we have caboose throws that we also added a SPDT switch to that provides power directly to the frog rails.  This removes the requirement that power pass through the point rail.

 

At this point, I am stymied. I've tried everthing I can think of

If you haven't powered them independently you have not come close to trying everything!  :-)  

 

IIRC Walthers old turnouts were power-routing, the newer "DCC Friendly" ones are non-power routing. In my experience the non-power routing ones will have less problems with stalling etc.

If you look at prototype turnouts, you'll notice that the moving points of the turnout often have little or no ballast under them.

Texas Zepher:

jecorbett:

While these were among the first turnouts installed, they are the last to get ballasted. I recently ballasted just the one turnout of the crossover and when I began to test the operation, that's when the trouble began.

Yup, balast is a turnouts worst enemy.  Our club no longer ballasts turnouts around the points area. No one seems to notice.

These turnouts are designed to route power only to the track that the turnout is alligned to. My voltage meter told me I was not getting power to the rails that formed the frog. Through further testing, I determined that the point rail apparently was not making a solid electrical connection with the fixed rail which apparently needs to happen.

What mechanizm are you using to throw the turnout?  Can it be tightened up?  If using stall motors such as Tortoise you could use heavier piano wire.  If you are using some sort of mechanical linkage can you change the "lever" to provide more torque to the points?  Does the turnout throwing mechanizm have electrical contacts in it (like Tortoise)?  If so just power the frog rails directly from that.   There are some turnouts we have caboose throws that we also added a SPDT switch to that provides power directly to the frog rails.  This removes the requirement that power pass through the point rail.

 

At this point, I am stymied. I've tried everthing I can think of

If you haven't powered them independently you have not come close to trying everything!  :-)  

 

For all my Walthers turnouts, I've used Peco switch machines. These have a good hard snapping motion and as I said, visually, it appears the points are contacting the fixed rail but for whatever reason, an electrical connection is not consistently being made.

I've cleared out all the ballast by the throwbar and there doesn't seem to be anything interfering with the movement of the bar. Since I'm having problems with the unballasted one, it would seem to be something else, This does trigger the idea that the problem might not be the ballast but the roadbed. I use WS foam roadbed and I seem to remember in the past that occasionally this can bind the throwbar. I'm thinking that after the switch machine has thrown the throwbar, the foam might be causing just enough of rebound action to keep solid contact from being made. I'm going to slice out the roadbed under the throwbar and see what that accomplishes.

Since nobody has addressed the real problem so far, I'll suggest you add some sort of electrical contacts to the throw mechanism.  If you are using a tortise switch machine it has electrical contacts on it otherwise hook up a mircoswitch or other electrical switch to the throw linkage.  Then put feeders to the stock rails and to the closure/points/frog rails.

The problem isn't ballast, its electrical routing and the Walthers switch uses a poor electrical routing system.  Replace it with a reliable electrical switch  and there won't be any problems.

For my Walthers switches, I soldered a fine wire to the bottom of the point rails, the frogs, and the stock rails. I've got a micro-switch that's thrown by the switch's throwbar (which is moved by a Caboose groundthrow). All the various wires are connected appropriately. I HAVE HAD NO ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS.

Doing this "after the fact" would admittedly be a real pain.

Ed

JECORBET said:

 For all my Walthers turnouts, I've used Peco switch machines. These have a good hard snapping motion and as I said, visually, it appears the points are contacting the fixed rail but for whatever reason, an electrical connection is not consistently being made.

 

The Peco switch machines are designed for Peco turnouts which have a built-in spring to hold the point rails againts the stock rails. They aren't designed for turnouts without that spring and wont keep point pressure on the stock rail once thrown, you need a "locking" switch machine or a stall motor type device that will keep the positive pressure on the stock rail.

You can also solder a jumper wire at the heel end of the point rail and connect it to a separate relay or the contacts on a switch machine that has them to change the polarity and provide consistent power. This will give you a permanent connection and you won't have to rely on point pressure to maintain electrical contact.

dehusman:

Since nobody has addressed the real problem so far, I'll suggest you add some sort of electrical contacts to the throw mechanism.  If you are using a tortise switch machine it has electrical contacts on it otherwise hook up a mircoswitch or other electrical switch to the throw linkage.  Then put feeders to the stock rails and to the closure/points/frog rails.

The problem isn't ballast, its electrical routing and the Walthers switch uses a poor electrical routing system.  Replace it with a reliable electrical switch  and there won't be any problems.

At this point, I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting. Is it possible with a single switch to both change the routing of the turnout and the polarity of the frog rails. If I hard wire the frog rails, it seems to me the polarity must be changed simultaneously with the switching the point rails or else a short will result. Exactly how should this be done?

modelmaker51:

JECORBET said:

 For all my Walthers turnouts, I've used Peco switch machines. These have a good hard snapping motion and as I said, visually, it appears the points are contacting the fixed rail but for whatever reason, an electrical connection is not consistently being made.

 

The Peco switch machines are designed for Peco turnouts which have a built-in spring to hold the point rails againts the stock rails. They aren't designed for turnouts without that spring and wont keep point pressure on the stock rail once thrown, you need a "locking" switch machine or a stall motor type device that will keep the positive pressure on the stock rail.

You can also solder a jumper wire at the heel end of the point rail and connect it to the outside stock rail. This will give you a permanent connection and you won't have to rely on point pressure to maintain electrical contact.

As I've said before, I know just enough about electricity to be dangerous but it seems to me that hard wiring the point rail to stock rail will create a short. The way the turnout is designed, both point rails have an electrical connection to the frog rails and the polarity of the frog rail is changed depending on which point rail is connected to the stock rail. If I hard wire the point rails, it seems like that would have to create a short.

As for changing the type of switch machine, I'm willing to do that if that is the best alternative, but would need to know what brand would work best with these turnouts. That could pose another problem here. As I originally stated, these were some of the first turnouts I installed and at the time I was experimenting with using 2" foam as the base. That was a problem for the undermount switch machines I wanted to use so my solution was to mortise out a rectangular piece under the turnouts and replaced it with a plywood piece to which I attached the Peco switch machines. These machines work in a very small opening so I didn't need to mortise out a very wide area. If I switch to another brand or switch machine that doesn't fit in that opening, I will probably have to rip everything out to cut a larger opening and if it gets to that point, I think I would opt to replace these garbage Walthers turnouts with more reliable Atlas turnouts.  

jecorbett:

At this point, I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting. Is it possible with a single switch to both change the routing of the turnout and the polarity of the frog rails. If I hard wire the frog rails, it seems to me the polarity must be changed simultaneously with the switching the point rails or else a short will result. Exactly how should this be done?

As Jay stated, you actually have 2 problems.

1) Peco switch machines do not have latches because of the latching spring built into Peco turnouts.  You have to come up with a latching mechanism on the turnout throw or install a different brand of switch machine (all others I know of have latches).  The latch holds the points against the stock rail.  As you have observed, depending on the point contacting the stock rail to transmit power is not all that reliable.  So -  

2) You need an electrical contact mounted on the turnout throw to power the frog.  Most switch machines - except Atlas and Peco - have a set of built-in contacts on the switch machine for this purpose.  The 2 sides of the contact are wired to the 2 outside rails of the turnout.  The frog is wired to the middle, moving part of the contact.

Since replacing the Peco switch machine with an NJ International, Rix, Tortoise, or similar will solve both problems at once, that would be the easiest way to proceed.  And you don't have to rip out the turnout.  Hopefully, the frog already has a feeder attached; if not, you will have to add one.  With a latching switch machine and the frog powered by a contact instead of the point, you should have all the reliability you expect.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

jecorbett:

At this point, I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting. Is it possible with a single switch to both change the routing of the turnout and the polarity of the frog rails. If I hard wire the frog rails, it seems to me the polarity must be changed simultaneously with the switching the point rails or else a short will result. Exactly how should this be done? 

You have to have some mechanism to move the switch points to one side or the other and hold them in place.

 How are you doing that?

The Walther's turnouts I have used before had the point rails soldered together. and the frog was powered off the point rails.  I am assuming this is the type of switch you are using.

You will need to connect a SPDT switch to the mechanism that throws the switch.  Radio Shack sells lever micro switches,  The most crude arrangement is you run a wire/rod from the turnout throwbar to the microswitch.  When you throw the switch one way the wire pushes against the lever of the microswitch and it connects the frog to one stock rail, when you throw the switch the other way the rod pulls away from the microswitch and the microswitch connects the frog to the other stock rail.  You can hide the wire/rod in brass tube and ballast over it and hide the microswitch under a building or scenery.

Its the same wiring people who handlay switches have used for the last 30-40 years.  Every switch I have laid for the last 20 years or so has had an electrical switch to control frog polarity, even the Atlas switches.  However the method I use requires you to prepare the roadbed prior to laying the switch, so I won't suggest that method.

Ok, there is another method.  You could use a crank arrangement and a switchmaster motor driven by a dpdt or a tpdt switch.  (see the photo)   The hole for the crank can be as long as you want on the vertical through the foam but you will need to provide a hard surface for the motor to mount underneath the table.  Many people object to the look of the crank at the throwbar....Paint it black and it is much less noticable.  The advantage here is that it can be installed without tearing up what you already have. 

For Shinohara/Walthers switches I generally hard wire the closure rails to the stock rails, remove the throwbar and replace it with a clover house bar that has a break in the copper to insulate the point rails from each other and gap the frog in front and behind to isolate it from the now permanetly hot closure/point rails.  By isolating the frog you don't have the problem of the polarity changing before the points move and causing a short....  A thin feeder or just a solder joint between the point and closure rail ensures contact in the points. 

 This is all much easier at the bench but could still be done on the railroad depending on how easy it is to acess the switch.  How good are your soldering skills??  Many modelers balk at the extra work but in my estimation I would rather spend the time up front ensuring good contact than retrofitting later.

The easiest wiring for the motor would be a triple pole double throw (check ebay for these) wired with the typical polarity cross for the motor direction and a single wire switching track polarity for the frog. IMHO Using the switch at the panel is much easier than installing microswitches.

Here is the motor from below-note the crank

here is the view from above-note the crank in the middle of the points

 

See these links:

http://www.builders-in-scale.com/bis/sm-home.html

http://www.builders-in-scale.com/bis/sm/schm-1001.html

Good luck,

 

Guy

fwright:

jecorbett:

At this point, I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting. Is it possible with a single switch to both change the routing of the turnout and the polarity of the frog rails. If I hard wire the frog rails, it seems to me the polarity must be changed simultaneously with the switching the point rails or else a short will result. Exactly how should this be done?

As Jay stated, you actually have 2 problems.

1) Peco switch machines do not have latches because of the latching spring built into Peco turnouts.  You have to come up with a latching mechanism on the turnout throw or install a different brand of switch machine (all others I know of have latches).  The latch holds the points against the stock rail.  As you have observed, depending on the point contacting the stock rail to transmit power is not all that reliable.  So -  

2) You need an electrical contact mounted on the turnout throw to power the frog.  Most switch machines - except Atlas and Peco - have a set of built-in contacts on the switch machine for this purpose.  The 2 sides of the contact are wired to the 2 outside rails of the turnout.  The frog is wired to the middle, moving part of the contact.

Since replacing the Peco switch machine with an NJ International, Rix, Tortoise, or similar will solve both problems at once, that would be the easiest way to proceed.  And you don't have to rip out the turnout.  Hopefully, the frog already has a feeder attached; if not, you will have to add one.  With a latching switch machine and the frog powered by a contact instead of the point, you should have all the reliability you expect.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

Changing switch machines seems like the best solution at this point. I know the turnouts will work if the points can be pressed firmly enough against the stock rails and apparently, the Pecos aren't getting that done reliably. I think somewhere I have a Tortise machine that a bought but never installed so I can at least try this out and find out if it will solve the problem before spending any more money on it. If only I can dig that machine up.

Obviously, my mistake was buying the Walthers turnouts initially without knowing about the electrical issues involved with them. I won't make that mistake again.

jecorbett:

dehusman:

Since nobody has addressed the real problem so far, I'll suggest you add some sort of electrical contacts to the throw mechanism.  If you are using a tortise switch machine it has electrical contacts on it otherwise hook up a mircoswitch or other electrical switch to the throw linkage.  Then put feeders to the stock rails and to the closure/points/frog rails.

At this point, I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting. Is it possible with a single switch to both change the routing of the turnout and the polarity of the frog rails. If I hard wire the frog rails, it seems to me the polarity must be changed simultaneously with the switching the point rails or else a short will result. Exactly how should this be done?

He is suggesting exactly what I suggested in my first post in this thread.  I don't know how he can say since no one has addressed the real problem.?

1. connect a wire to the frog.
2. run that wire to the center pole of a SPDT switch that gets thrown with the turnout. Unfortunately I don't know how Peco switch motors work but if they don't have electrical contacts on them there has to be some way to get a SPDT to work in conjunction with them.

Is this the peco machines you are using -->
3. run wires from each of the other two contacts on the SPDT switch to each side of track power.  Make certain the polarity matches the way the points "switch" the power.
4.  When the electrical switch changes with the turnout the power will change also.

As another posted mentioned another good thing to add is a jumper wire from the rails going toward the points onto the actual point rail.  That little piece of metal that jumps power between them is unreliable at best. 

Texas Zepher:

jecorbett:

dehusman:

Since nobody has addressed the real problem so far, I'll suggest you add some sort of electrical contacts to the throw mechanism.  If you are using a tortise switch machine it has electrical contacts on it otherwise hook up a mircoswitch or other electrical switch to the throw linkage.  Then put feeders to the stock rails and to the closure/points/frog rails.

At this point, I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm trying to understand exactly what you are suggesting. Is it possible with a single switch to both change the routing of the turnout and the polarity of the frog rails. If I hard wire the frog rails, it seems to me the polarity must be changed simultaneously with the switching the point rails or else a short will result. Exactly how should this be done?

He is suggesting exactly what I suggested in my first post in this thread.  I don't know how he can say since no one has addressed the real problem.?

1. connect a wire to the frog.
2. run that wire to the center pole of a SPDT switch that gets thrown with the turnout. Unfortunately I don't know how Peco switch motors work but if they don't have electrical contacts on them there has to be some way to get a SPDT to work in conjunction with them.

Is this the peco machines you are using -->
3. run wires from each of the other two contacts on the SPDT switch to each side of track power.  Make certain the polarity matches the way the points "switch" the power.
4.  When the electrical switch changes with the turnout the power will change also.

As another posted mentioned another good thing to add is a jumper wire from the rails going toward the points onto the actual point rail.  That little piece of metal that jumps power between them is unreliable at best. 

Sorry, but I didn't quite understand it when you first suggested this. I will look at the Pecos to see how I would need to wire them to the rails.

I real don't think running a jumper wire to the point rails will work with these turnouts. Both point rails connect to the frog which means they are also connected to each other. Only one point rail can be receiving power at any one time and that is the one connected to the stock rail. If they are hard wired, both point rails will be receiving opposing polarity at the same time and that spells short.