Layouts and layout building

MisterBeasley:

This is my basic benchwork table.  It's a frame of 1x4, with 1x3 cross pieces.  The 2-inch foam sits on the rafters, inside the frame and 1 inch down, giving the foam protection.  The legs are 2x3, and I put wheels on the bottom of mine so I can move it around the room.

That's basically what I'm looking at doing, except that I'll use six squat legs to get some height off the table.

It was very light, and very easy to build when I did it.

Simple question, but how exactly do you assemble the frame pieces? Glue, screw, both? First the four framing pieces and then add the rafters?

With the complete layout on top, it's considerably heavier.  Still, I can drag it across the carpeted floor without much difficulty.

I'm sure it won't be something I'll need to move up and down every week, probably not even every month. I'm planning on mounting a pair of handles on each short side. That shouldn't be too big a problem for two people to move.

Also, remember that your layout will have stuff under it as well as on top of it - particularly wiring.  If you are going to lift and move the layout, make provisions to protect your wiring.

Good point. Assuming I stick with my original idea for short legs, I should be able to bundle up wiring runs against the bottom of the rafters and have plenty of clearance over the table to avoid damage during moves.

bob@osd:

I want to take his suggestion 1 step further. If you were to build this layout in that manner (lightness is a virtue) and support it on the free side along 1 wall so that it could be attached to the wall to hold it steady when in use, you could, if it were to hang at the 4' level or above, let it hang against the wall, either at that level or raise it to the ceiling.

That's a pretty cool idea, though it would require me to rethink my basic layout plan since the wall side wouldn't be so accessible. I'll consider it, though...

tppytel:

Simple question, but how exactly do you assemble the frame pieces? Glue, screw, both? First the four framing pieces and then add the rafters?

First I built the outer box with the 1x4s.  If you look at the current (December) issue of MR, there's a picture of a metal clamp on page 35.  I bought one of these, and found it was really helpful in holding the corners square.  I used both carpenters' glue and dry-wall screws, with pre-drilled holes to prevent splitting.  I added a diagonal piece of 1x4 to keep the whole thing square, and then added the rafters, using the same technique.

I'm really not much of a carpenter, but this made the whole thing easy.  By the way, I used square corners everywhere - no diagonal miter cuts.  Again, it's just easier.

tppytel:

It's that I want to make sure I'm serious enough to finish a smaller job before tackling a larger one. I also think that I'll learn a lot building a simpler layout quickly and then be much better equipped to make design choices on something larger.

Bingo!  Glad to hear that -- ultimately, it's the best thing you can do.  Just be warned:  I (re-)entered the hobby ten years ago with a thrown-together 4x8 because I wanted to get something up and running quickly for my kids.  I now have a 6x10 that I'm still tinkering with, and still having a great time with.  But I've experimented and ripped stuff out over and over again.  I have a 10x15 on the drawing boards, but so far, that's where it sits.  Ok, that's partially due to budget constraints, but mostly, I'm not quite ready to give up on this one.  Of course, I spent some time building a second layout just for my younger boys as well.

If all newcomers had that attitude, we'd get a lot less of the "design my layout for me" threads.

Look at your ceiling.  In a basement layout several years ago I suspended the 4x8 table from the basement ceiling.  With a series of pulleys, it was easily raised and lowered.  High enough for a 6'5" person to walk under.  It also yielded the opportunity to put it at nearly any height when operating.  Low for little kids, and higher to keep little kids out (genius, shear genius.)  The rolling stock didn't have to be removed, and in the stowed position near the ceiling, there was less opportunity for dust.  In the raised position, working on the wiring was easy.  The whole thing weight just under 50 pounds. 

 Here an idea I thought of doing for my 4x8 Yardmaster layout, when I was in my teens. 2 engine stand with a welded 2.5 square frame that supported the 4x8 plywood layout  Over all dimension is 5H x 9L. Got the idea from a upholstery shop where I worked at the time. that used the system for woodworking jigs.

HO Pilot:

Look at your ceiling.  In a basement layout several years ago I suspended the 4x8 table from the basement ceiling.  With a series of pulleys, it was easily raised and lowered.

Also a very cool idea. I suspect it won't work in my basement, but I'll have to do some measurements and check. The problem is that 1) our basement's ceiling is very low and barely leaves me (6'4") any headroom in the first place, and that 2) there are several pipes and conduit runs along the ceiling in the area I'd want to use. I'll look into it, though, as it would solve a lot of problems. Thanks!

And it's done! I took Mister Beasley's basic framework and added two planks lengthwise with short legs attached to them. While there are some nits to pick here and there, I'm pretty happy with the result:

For those who didn't follow the entire conversation, the primary consideration was to create a tabletop layout base that could (occasionally, if not easily) be moved off the table to free up space. I think the result does this quite well. It's definitely too large (4'x7') for me to move solo, but that's not a problem - two people can manage it easily. It's as stable as whatever table it sits on, and stands almost 4' high. Should be pretty workable. Here's a shot underneath showing the legs better:

The legs are 1.5" square oak, ends sanded square on a disc sander, glued on to the planks. I attached the legs before attaching the planks in order to make sure I could clamp them and make them as level as possible. The local Lowe's had 3" square oak as well, which would have been even more solid, but they didn't have the equipment to cut it down and neither did I. But the 1.5" legs seem good enough, and the 3" ones would've been significantly more expensive anyway. I found some furniture feet with a 1/4" bolt and attached those to the legs with corresponding tee nuts, so I can adjust the heights to level out the layout - our floor isn't all that level in this part of the basement. I also found some rubber no-slip pads that fit the feet exactly. The whole setup has just enough space between the legs and the edges of the table to withstand some bumping, but I'll probably rig up something with a couple of bungee cords so that a big bump won't send the whole thing onto the floor.

Should any other newbies be contemplating similar projects, here were a couple lessons I learned for next time:

1) Make sure you've got good wood before starting. I used clear pine boards from Lowe's, but it was very hard to find straight pieces. It wasn't until after I started that I noticed they also stocked aspen boards for about the same price that were much, much straighter than the pine ones. Similarly, don't trust lumber measurements. Again, it wasn't until after I had the outer box constructed that I noticed that the boards were only cut to about +/- 1/4" of the stated length. That's easily enough variation to make it hard to get tight joints for the glue to hold onto. If I were starting over, I'd get boards on the big side and sand down the ends on the disc sander to get more precision on the lengths.

2) Make your life easier with screws. I used 2" brass #8 wood screws (as well as glue) to join most of the pieces. Even with a good pilot, this was pretty tough on the screws and I stripped a bunch of them. Since the screws only have to make the joint tight enough for the glue to work well, the #8's were overkill - I could've used shorter, #6 screws and they would've done just as well and been a lot easier to work with. A new driver bit for my drill would've been good too rather than the rusty old cheap one that I'd been using for years. Zinc screws might have been a bit tougher than the brass ones as well. However, I do think screws were the right choice for lumber this light - the one joint I got lazy on and nailed started to split the wood.

3) Be patient and use plenty of clamps. Between this and earlier projects, I now have quite the impressive clamp collection. The corner clamps recommended earlier in the thread were particularly helpful. When joining the outer box and girders, the best method I found required several steps. First I located and drilled pilots through the board that would be on top. Next I clamped the boards together and continued the pilots into the bottom board, marking everything so that I could properly realign it later.

Next I countersunk the pilots. And then with all that done, I removed the clamps, glued, reclamped, and drove in the screws. Once the screw got a good bite on the bottom board, I loosened the clamp before driving the screw all the way in so that the clamp wouldn't work against it. All of this was kind of fussy and probably way overengineered for the task, but I did end up with nice, clean joins:

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with the result. I'm very much aware of the numerous limitations of a 4' by X' HO island layout, but for my current situation this should work. The point is to get myself a small, semi-portable layout that I can finish in a reasonable time and learn some skills with. If I end up scrapping this one in a year or two (or, more likely, gifting it to my kids) and starting again on a permanent, more serious, along-the-wall design, that's fine by me.

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. Time to go run some trains!

Overall it looks very well constructed but I have a few questions/suggestions.  Is the foam set into the frame or on top of it?  Having the top of the foam flush with the frame would have been better.  It protects the edge of the frame from being damaged and presents a cleaner look.  The short legs are alright.  Did you consider using folding hardware so that you won't have to worried about knocking or breaking them off.  On the construction side, having a lot of clamps is always a benefit.  The right angle clamps are nice to have.  Next time, or for others, consider using either biscuit joinery and glue or pocket screws.  With the biscuits the corners can be glued and clamped and no screws are needed.  With pocket screws the screws are inside the frame.  Both leave a nice, smooth look on the outside with no screw heads showing.  Both are very strong joints and you avoid screwing into the end grain of the board.  For the trackplan, a word of advice - avoid the 2 track oval scenario and trying to cram as much track as possible into it.  Sometimes less of more.

Silver Pilot:

Overall it looks very well constructed but I have a few questions/suggestions.  Is the foam set into the frame or on top of it?

The foam is inside the frame. The outer box is made of 1x4's and the inner girders from 1x3's. So there's about an inch of space for the foam to sit in.

Having the top of the foam flush with the frame would have been better.  It protects the edge of the frame from being damaged and presents a cleaner look.

Yeah, I was considering that. It mostly ended up this way just because of the foam and lumber dimensions that were readily available. But I also thought that having the sides of the foam accessible might be useful for scenery construction, expansion, or wiring. At some point, I may whip up a lightweight frame that would cover that last inch of foam and also attach to some paneling that would make the fascia look prettier.

The short legs are alright.  Did you consider using folding hardware so that you won't have to worried about knocking or breaking them off.

That probably would've been a good idea, but I wasn't aware of anything out there that would work correctly for this height and still be stable. I suppose I could simply have hinged the legs, but that seems prone to stability issues. I agree the fixed legs will be a little fussy when it's off the table. I'm sure that with the right parts there's probably a better solution out there.

On the construction side, having a lot of clamps is always a benefit.  The right angle clamps are nice to have.  Next time, or for others, consider using either biscuit joinery and glue or pocket screws.  With the biscuits the corners can be glued and clamped and no screws are needed.  With pocket screws the screws are inside the frame.  Both leave a nice, smooth look on the outside with no screw heads showing.  Both are very strong joints and you avoid screwing into the end grain of the board.

My carpentry experience is pretty limited - I had never heard of either biscuit joinery or pocket screws until reading your post. A little Googling suggests that those would indeed be more professional approaches to this kind of construction. Both would seem to require additional tools, though, if I understand them correctly. But they look like good techniques to learn for the next time around.

For the trackplan, a word of advice - avoid the 2 track oval scenario and trying to cram as much track as possible into it. Sometimes less is more.

Yeah, I'm still going over lots of possible plans and ideas, but I agree that you can't put too much on such a small HO layout with it being ridiculous. I had been trying out different things in a CAD program, but without actually trying it out and putting down some mock-up structures it was too hard to visualize. I'll probably use flextrack eventually, but for starters I've got a bunch of sectional track pieces so that I can more easily try out different plans and see what looks and works best.

Thanks for the comments - good food for thought.

A couple of minor suggestions:

1.  The 2 "planks" or main "beams" would be stronger and facilitate a better, easier connection to the legs if they were oriented with their width in the vertical and secured to the sides of the legs.

2.  As you discovered, brass screws do not take much abuse.  Better choices would be good old drywall screws or stainless steel or deck screws.

Dante

dante:

1.  The 2 "planks" or main "beams" would be stronger and facilitate a better, easier connection to the legs if they were oriented with their width in the vertical and secured to the sides of the legs.

Right - a board will be stronger if it's "on end" relative to the weight. But then how would you connect those cross beams to the frame? There would be very little surface area for glue and I don't see what kind of fastener would be stable. Maybe I'm not correctly visualizing what you're suggesting.

2.  As you discovered, brass screws do not take much abuse.  Better choices would be good old drywall screws or stainless steel or deck screws.

Definitely. 

 Overall looks pretty nice. 

A couple of points, end grain glue joints are not very strong and screwing into end grain is weak also; so the 2 inch screws you used are definitely a plus for making a strong joint.  If you want the look of brass screws it can be helpful to drive a steel screw of the same size in first and then replace it with the brass one.  Personally, I use #10 stainless steel for screwing into end grain, but for this application #8's should work - I think #6's here would be too small. 

You're right about the wood at Lowes.  The 1x3's and 1x4's are frequently not straight even though select pine is not cheap.  I've had to go as far as buying 1x8's and ripping them into 1x4's.

Enjoy

Paul

 I put my 4X8 on casters so I can roll it around; it helps because I don't have a lot of space around the table but it sort of stinks when I forget it rolls easily.  I'll be working on something and it starts taking off on me :)

dale8chevyss:

 I put my 4X8 on casters so I can roll it around; it helps because I don't have a lot of space around the table but it sort of stinks when I forget it rolls easily.  I'll be working on something and it starts taking off on me :)

You can get casters with brakes on them.  You step on one end of the lever, locked...other end, rolls.  I'd recommend putting them on at least two legs if not all four.

Good luck,