Transit

Does anyone know of a definitive history (book) about the railroads of Staten Island?  I haven't a clue, having only been there twice, if I can include a drive over the Verrezanno-Narrows bridge.  I did the ferry, once, but never got off!  I'm most interested in the tunnel, from Brooklyn, that was started, but never got far.  Was Robert Moses (a.k.a. "Dirtball") involved in that?  Thanks.

Bill

BNSFwatcher:

Does anyone know of a definitive history (book) about the railroads of Staten Island?  I haven't a clue, having only been there twice, if I can include a drive over the Verrezanno-Narrows bridge.  I did the ferry, once, but never got off!  I'm most interested in the tunnel, from Brooklyn, that was started, but never got far.  Was Robert Moses (a.k.a. "Dirtball") involved in that?  Thanks.

Bill

You can get a decent start on your research at Wikipedia.  Hopefully this link will work for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staten_Island_Railway

 

 

BNSFwatcher:

Does anyone know of a definitive history (book) about the railroads of Staten Island?  I haven't a clue, having only been there twice, if I can include a drive over the Verrezanno-Narrows bridge.  I did the ferry, once, but never got off!  I'm most interested in the tunnel, from Brooklyn, that was started, but never got far.  Was Robert Moses (a.k.a. "Dirtball") involved in that?  Thanks.

Bill

The tunnel you refer to must be the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel. I think Robert Moses favored bridges to tunnels. The depth of the channel under the Verrezanno bridge is 90 feet, a little deep for a tunnel. Robert Moses is an historical figure that people love to hate. He had 2 things: vision and willpower and didn't let anyone get in his way. Money talks and b..... Long Islanders (Laungulunduzz) certainly enjoy all the projects he created today, completely unaware or appreciative of how they came to be. As far as Staten Id, it was extremely rural before the bridge and there might still be farms down in Tottenville. Staten ID is also home of Island Trains a Lionel dealer.

  The Brooklyn-Battery (vehicular) tunnel connects Brooklyn (Kings County) with the Battery area of Manhattan (New York County). 

  For the following, I cite, but do not quote, Stan Fischler's wonderful "The Subway and the City":  the railway tunnel, between Brooklyn and Staten Island (Richmond County) was proposed by the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, owners of the Staten Island Rapid Transit Railroad Co. and the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co. (later BMT), and headings began in both Brooklyn and Staten Island in 1925.  The tunnel was opposed by Mayor Hylan, who had been fired by the BRT, for cause, and Governor Al Smith, a large Pennsylvania Railroad shareholder.  Still don't know about Moses' involvement, but he squelched the idea of rapid transit sharing the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, which was completed in 1964.

  Ain't politics wunnerful?  Moses DID build the world's longest parking lot, the Long Island Expressway!

 

That's Long Island DISTRESSWAY! My wife got caught in the great mayonnaise spill disaster for about 5 hours. LI old timers never use the Distressway but use the Parkways that were built by Moses.

Fischlers books are good and there are several others, Brian (?) Cauday is another.  Go to the MTA webpage and click on the museum page for more books and histories.  Google or Bing Staten Island RR, too.  Do not rely on Wikopedia as gospel but find real sources..

I never heard of the "Great Mayonnaise Spill Disaster".  Can you enlighten me?  Sounds cool!  I lived in Westchester County, and worked in Manhattan, and spent many-an-hour in gridlock on "Moses' Miracles":  the Whitestone Expwy., the Van Wyck, Cross Island, Meadowbrook, Wantagh, and Northern State Parkways, just trying to get to Jones Beach or Ammityville!  In the mid-'60s, I discovered the LIRR "Cannonballs" to get me to the Hamptons on the weekends!  Those were trips!!!  I left the Porsche at home.  Sorry.  Robert Moses is not one of my favorites, especially after reading his biography.  'Nuff said.

To answer the mayonnaise question: about 20 years ago a truck full of mayonnaise in glass jars got dumped over, I think, east of Rosylyn road and before the turn off to the Meadowbrook Parkway. The spill covered the roadway with mayonnaise and broken glass and being in a narrow spot everybody behind could not be routed around it until they got it cleaned up. Back on topic- sort of. Most of my customers were located on Richmond Terrace ave. that runs parallel to the north shore of Staten Island. Access to everyone of them is across unused tracks that run from the lift bridge at Arthur Kill all the way to connection to SIRT at the ferry terminal at Saint George. I think the B&O railroad use to operate this and there was a carfloat operation at St. George. At the time I remember it the tracks were in place but covered with trash and the tug boat companies parked on the right of ways. There was some news recently about reactivating the bridge and opening the line only as far as a container port at Port Ivory at the far western end. Since SIRT is a going concerne I always wonder how the new equipment was delivered to an otherwise isolated system.

I think I read about a year ago that the B&O built bridge and line connecting with old CNJ line has been rebuilt and is in operation to a container port on the Island.   The right of way between the container Port and the St> Geroge terminal is intact and there have been many studies about converting it to rapid transit, light rail, bus way, etc.   Doesn;t Clifton yard have a water connection?  I seem to remember it does, from many years ago, and this would have permitted barging the R-44's in and out.  Also the new diesels, etc.   The Alco RS-1's used in work service have finally been replaced.

1. I think there is barge connection at St George. I remember someone saying a barge connection somewhere. I would have thought at either end(St George or Totenville) but when I did a quick look at google maps I could not find.

2. There is a time of day when the LIE moves very nicely, about 1am in the morning. When I have loads out to the Island this is when I drive at least one segment

3. Remember Robert Moses was appointed by republicans(Fiorello LaGuardia) . Motorman Mike Hylan found himself alienating tammany hall who(tammany hall) deceided to put a piano player in the mayors office(he resigned in disgrace, sailed to europe, was divorced by his (1st wife) & then married his mistress in France.(Jimmy Walker & Betty Compton)

       Sorry for the soap box(3) . (Jimmy Walker & Betty Compton were my grandparents)

I should probably dump this. but will leave up for a little

 

Rgds IGN

 

PS According to the Wikipedia article cars are taken to shop by truck.

Looking at a Google aerial view of St. George, there is a baseball diamond in the middle of where the B &O marine terminal use to be. The derelict US gypsum plant has been removed and replaced with a waterfront park all the way to Snug Harbor. My how things have changed in sleepy Staten Island in 15 years. This terminal was the base for B & O's carfloat operation to interchange with Brooklyn and everybody else in New York harbor. There was something about carfloat operations in New York harbor in a recent Trains I think. When I was in college back in the early '60's the river and upper NY bay was covered with railroad tugs and carfloats. By the late "70's all the passenger and cargo ship traffic on the Hudson to Manhattan was gone and all the railroad operations had disappeared. I don't know how SIRT can revitalize the line to the west without ripping up the new "Bank Ave" they just put in from New Brighten to St. George. Probably used by the buses now.

Possibly they will have a bit of street running.   Not out of the question with rail, look at the success of the Trenton - Camden diesel light rail line, the NJT "River Line."  It has quite a bit of street running at the Camden end, but much of the line will continue to used by CSX frieght.

 

 

Look it up on www.nycsubway.org. 

The original Dual Contracts plan provided for a tunnel under the Narrows from southern Brooklyn/Bay Ridge to Staten Island. The tunnel was intended to leave the 4th Avenue subway at 65th St, Brooklyn, and would have entered Staten Island midway between St. George and Stapleton, and would have had branches to each. The 4th Avenue subway has four tracks between 59th and 65th Streets, two of which were intended for the Staten Island connection.

The Staten Island link might have been built in several different ways. It is likely that a full 4-track subway to Fort Hamilton would only have made sense if it led to a Narrows tunnel. A different plan, which got as far as engineering drawings and even some excavation, would have left the subway just south of 59th St, and you can see tunnel stub headings running straight from the local tracks immediately south of the station. Several different plans were drawn up for the Narrows tunnel, including a two track and a four track option.

Recent discussions of a railroad freight tunnel across New York Harbor from New Jersey via Staten Island may once again bring about discussion of connecting the subway to Staten Island. It is likely that any tunnel built would be designed to tie into the LIRR's Bay Ridge Branch across southern Brooklyn to East New York, Fresh Pond, and via the New York Connecting Railroad to the Hell Gate Bridge.

 

There is another bellmonth south of Whitehall Street for a tunnel to Staten Island. 

 

Just a bit of nostalgia for those who appreciate it.  In my grade school days, my Dad would regularly ride the Staten Island Rapid Transit with me:

Once a year to the picnic put on by his Masonic Lodge at a park near the Grant City Station.

Summer Sundays at South Beach

 

In my high school days I regarded the Tottenville line as the nearest thing to a real interurban that I could experience without leaving the NYC area.  I think at least once I made the circle trip ferry from S. Ferry to St. George, train to Tottenville, ferry to Pearth Amboy, and PRR back to Penn Sta., Mnhattan

 

I also rode a Kneiling fan trip that covered the entire SIRT, 1947, going beyond to the end of electrification at Arlington with a diesel RS-1 pulling to Port Ivory.

 

Off-peak and weekend service to South Beach and Arlington was with one-car trains.

Tottenville had two to four cars.

I think service on all lines was every 30 minutes.

The B&O steam the diesels replaced were or included camelbacks

The last stop on the South Beach line was not South Beach but one stop further, but was on a single track at Wentworth Avenue.   Here the high platform was intended for one door only.