General Discussion (Classic Trains)

How did the Wabash come about having its line from Detroit to Buffalo by way of Ontario? Was it a trackage agreement of some kind? Does it still exist?

Thanks,

Roy Bower

Rocky Mount 

 

In 1897, the Wabash leased trackage rights on the Grand Trunk for 99 years. 

Mike

Before NAFTA US railroads couldn't own trackage in Canada, or vice-versa, so they'd have to either have a trackage rights agreement or create a separate company in the other country.

For example, the part of the Canadian National mainline that dipped south of the Lake of the Woods in northern Minnesota had to be chartered as (IIRC) the "Minnesota and Manitoba Ry." even though it was really just the CN mainline.

There were also limits on the time equipment could stay in the other country. I know on CN-owned Duluth Winnepeg and Pacific, CN engines and sleepers could run from Ft. Francis Ontario down to Duluth on the DWP, but had to be back in Canada within either 24 or 48 hours.  

wjstix:

Before NAFTA US railroads couldn't own trackage in Canada, or vice-versa, so they'd have to either have a trackage rights agreement or create a separate company in the other country.

For example, the part of the Canadian National mainline that dipped south of the Lake of the Woods in northern Minnesota had to be chartered as (IIRC) the "Minnesota and Manitoba Ry." even though it was really just the CN mainline.

There were also limits on the time equipment could stay in the other country. I know on CN-owned Duluth Winnepeg and Pacific, CN engines and sleepers could run from Ft. Francis Ontario down to Duluth on the DWP, but had to be back in Canada within either 24 or 48 hours.  

 

Actually NAFTA has little to do with it.  In both countries railways need a charter to be built, at least if they are a common carrier.  The charter in Canada could be provincial or federal, and presumably the same may have been the case in the USA.  It  remains true to this day that a railroad crossing borders will need a separate charter in each jurisdiction.  Ownership is not the issue, merely the need to comply with sovereignty obligations.  The charters continue to be separate for each country, even if for most purposes the line is operated as if it is one railroad.

The Wabash would have arranged running rights to enable them to connect with Detroit, and yet avoid the cost and difficulty of constructing their own line across a well settled countryside.  It was advantageous for the Grand Trunk, producing valuable income from a lightly travelled line. 

The limits on how long equipment could stay in the foreign country was driven by taxes.  Normal imports would be subject to customs duties, but an exemption was made for rolling stock that immediately returned to the home country after reaching its destination.  Sometimes the railroad would pay the taxes in both countries and then the car or locomotive could be used freely.  This was often done later when the value of the locomotive had depreciated significantly and so the duty payable was much less.

John

One point I would like to make is that Canadian National did employ Americans to maintain the trackage on the CN mainline between Baudette Minnesota and the Canadian Border north of Warroad Minnesota. Near Warroad in 1983 I saw a CN pickup truck with Minnesota plates on it; meaning the truck was registered in the United States not Canada. Canadian citizens cannot operate motor vehicle registered in the United States while in the United States. I am curious just who signed the paychecks of these American CN employees? The paper Minnesota and Manitoba, DW&P or Grand Trunk Corporation.

Canadian citizens cannot operate motor vehicle registered in the United States while in the United States.

The above is a quote from a previous post'

I don't know the finer points of American or Canadian traffic laws but this puzzles me a little.  What happens if a Canadian Citizen has a vacation in the United States and rents a car registered in the United States?

The Wabash when they operated across Ontario used their own locomotives and maintained them in Canada. It was referred to as the Buffalo Division headquartered in St Thomas Ontario. Those Wabash employees were Canadian citizens. This was done both in the steam era and diesel. NYC and Pere Marquette( C&O) also operated trains across Ontario and they unlike Wabash did own trackage in Canada.Any truck or other motor vehicle owned by any of these American Railroads that would be used by primarily by Canadian employees based in Canada must be registered in Canada.This is all about taxes and revenue. The cars that Canadian tourists rent in the United States are US vehicles with US plates. Those railroads would have been in very hot water with Ontario if they used vehicles registered in Michigan or New York or any other US state while they were being used primarily in Canada and driven by Canadians.

Great Western:

Canadian citizens cannot operate motor vehicle registered in the United States while in the United States.

The above is a quote from a previous post'

I don't know the finer points of American or Canadian traffic laws but this puzzles me a little.  What happens if a Canadian Citizen has a vacation in the United States and rents a car registered in the United States?

 

Apparently, nothing unusual.  I just checked with Avis and they're perfectly willing to rent me, a Canucklehead, one of their cars in Buffalo, NY and allow me to drive all the way to Albuquerque, NM.  I can pick it up tomorrow morning at 9:00AM (no problem there) but have to have it back to them by 9:00AM on January 1.    

Wayne

I have rented US registered automobiles on two separate occasions, two states, five years apart, and was welcomed as a paying and legally responsible, permitted, client.

-Crandell

aricat:

Any truck or other motor vehicle owned by any of these American Railroads that would be used by primarily by Canadian employees based in Canada must be registered in Canada.This is all about taxes and revenue. Those railroads would have been in very hot water with Ontario if they used vehicles registered in Michigan or New York or any other US state while they were being used primarily in Canada and driven by Canadians.

The above is the key fact relative to the country of registration for company (business) owned vehicles.

Car rental companies operate under similar rules and regulations.  Cars rented for use in the US must be registered in one of the 50 states.  Similarly, cars rented predominately in Canada must be registered in Canada.  There are provisions for limited international rental.  Note that the nationality of the rentor is not part of the equation.

aricat:

Any truck or other motor vehicle owned by any of these American Railroads that would be used by primarily by Canadian employees based in Canada must be registered in Canada.This is all about taxes and revenue. Those railroads would have been in very hot water with Ontario if they used vehicles registered in Michigan or New York or any other US state while they were being used primarily in Canada and driven by Canadians.

The above is the key fact relative to the country of registration for company (business) owned vehicles.

Car rental companies operate under similar rules and regulations.  Cars rented for use in the US must be registered in one of the 50 states.  Similarly, cars rented predominately in Canada must be registered in Canada.  There are provisions for limited international rental.  Note that the nationality of the rentor is not part of the equation.

Apropos the general question, just a side note. The Wabash connected with its Canadian trackage rights at Detroit via ferry across the Detroit River, just as the Grand Trunk Western in Detroit connected with the Canadian National in Windsor via ferry. When I was a teenager in Detroit in 1953 or 1954, my dad took me to Brush Street Station where we boarded a CN coach and rode in it via ferry to Windsor. I remember seeing a dead Wabash 2-8-2 in the yard at Windsor from the window of the CN coach, the Wabash having dieselized here by this time. A few years ago a friend sent me a photo of Wabash EMD switcher working the ferry dock at Windsor. The only rail connection, of course, was the NYC's (Michigan Central-Canada Southern) Detroit-Windsor Tunnel which was electrified by third rail. I also saw and photographed those electric R1 steeple-cab units and the R2 box-cab units that came from New York City to supplant them.