General Discussion

henry6:

And that because of today's circumstances and the planners' foreseeable needs, things have to be different than they have for the past 50 or 60 years.  Its not a matter of just thinking outside the box, its almost a matter of rebuilding the box!  Then you have to indoctonate the masses into accepting it.

That to me is kind of problematic. I heard way too many prophets of doom in my time to really believe in the hype that is pushed around at times. Acid Rain photos of the Black Forest wherein certain deciduous trees that had lost leaves--late October/early November tends to do that to trees around there at this time of year---the photos were supposed to depict a near leafless landscape due to acid rain yet--it became known that not only did some deciduous lose leaves but there was a certain type of evergreen lose its leaves too. OOPS. Rework the campaign...

And again, the bold print. And excitement--as if the world will collapse on its butt in 20 years. And then this?

henry6:

Then you have to indoctonate the masses into accepting it.

Sorry if I bounce here but this is exactly the kind of thing that environmentalists that I know and work with are not too fond of---those who speak loudly against manipulation are most likely to use it--

henry6:

And your market makes the choice theory is what the Edsel failure was all about: there were so many other, so many better choices, so why buy an Edsel?  But what if Edsel were the only car available?   

Then what you have is a closed/managed market...potentially in a closed/managed society.

henry6:

Bucyrus said: But I don’t think that all of the desire to consume is simply the result of marketing/ advertising indoctrination....There has to be more to the formula than just brainwashing people into consuming what you want them to consume. .

So what do you eat for breakfast?  Where do you have lunch?  How' bout dinner?  You have a need to eat but some marketer has forced you into the answers to those three questions!  So if need were the sole criteria for success or failure, there would only be one choice for each answer, like the whole world would have Egg McMuffins for breakfast now matter where you live.  And your market makes the choice theory is what the Edsel failure was all about: there were so many other, so many better choices, so why buy an Edsel?  But what if Edsel were the only car available?    

Marketers have not forced me into these decisions. I eat what I am hungry for in a location that is convenient. If someone offers (in a free market) an especially delicious breakfast that is further away or more expensive, I may decide to travel and eat that. If someone else decides to cut the price, they will see demand increase. That's not because it is marketed-it's a result of people deciding how to allocate their resources.

And I ain't eating egg mcmuffins for breakfast. I don't like them, so I will go elsewhere whether they are marketed or not. You are failing to consider that people are individuals. Give them some credit.

If marketing is so all-powerful, why doesn't Amtrak do some and conjure up some more demand for rail travel?  Or does it just work for airplanes and highways? Heck, some smart marketer should be able to have people begging for HSR at any price by week after next. Right?

It is rather surprising to realize that many here think that advertising is simply designed to inform folks of what is available.  Some is, but most has has been based (since at least the 20's) on associations to situations or objects that most folks already desire.  Beauty, violence, sex, power, wealth, etc.  And apparently many have never heard of behavioral economics and finance (the world of irrational choices).

It also appears that many here seem unaware of the many historical contributions of the US (and Canadian) federal and state governments to various modes of transportation, including initiating massive projects such as highways, bridges, mass transit and railroads since the early national period.  Example: the federal National Road (Pike) from 1811 to 1835; the eastern portion was turned over to the states in 1835 and became a turnpike (toll).  State of New York appropriated $7 mil.for the Erie Canal, completed in 8 years.  The Pacific Railway Acts of 1862 financed the construction of the UP/CP with land grants and 6% 30 year US government bonds at a rate of $16000 to 48000 per mile and corporate bonds up to the total amount of US government bonds. It is interesting that Lincoln had the vision to do so in the middle of the bloodiest war in our history, as well as a financially burdensome one.

I give up...I no longer have time to ride this merry-go-round of rhetoric.

schlimm:

It is rather surprising to realize that many here think that advertising is simply designed to inform folks of what is available.  Some is, but most has has been based (since at least the 20's) on associations to situations or objects that most folks already desire.  Beauty, violence, sex, power, wealth, etc.  And apparently many have never heard of behavioral economics and finance (the world of irrational choices).

Of course many did not because not ALL advertizing comprised of that out and out manipulation. SOME did BUT NOT ALL=hence the sanity producing drug--Sumbunall. The thing that gets me is that there are all kinds of it even in the realm of environmental issues. We do not need fear and paranoia being used as the chief motivators here. Theodor Roczak, author of novels like Flicker and a social activist way back in the 1960's challenged many people into thinking about ways to motivate people without using shame and guilt as the prime motivators. He said that these motivators, which prime the emotional centers, will burn out and leave people desensitized to the very issues many feel strongly about. Maybe in the area of RR there is a need to approach the whole thing DIFFERENTLY.

schlimm:

It also appears that many here seem unaware of the many historical contributions of the US (and Canadian) federal and state governments to various modes of transportation, including initiating massive projects such as highways, bridges, mass transit and railroads since the early national period

And these were without some form of central planning as such--again. Each project was generally regional in scope----which built up the nation(s). Mind, some ideas did not pan out too well. If you go along Highway 60 through Algonquin Park here in ON you will go through, along, between sites that tell of an ambitious scheme to colonize the way of the Opeongo Trail. This route went from just outside of Ottawa ON then finished near Opeongo Lk. It did not really succeed simply because those at the top did not pay attention to what certain reports from surveyors were telling the 'knowing ones' ,that it was basically not a farmers dreamscape. Governments could play a role in the transportation scenario---it is just that I think a more participatory, in other words, more democratic, type of schema is more useful---

Where are the so called classic manipulators when you need them?

henry6:

I give up...I no longer have time to ride this merry-go-round of rhetoric.

Henry,

Don’t get off now.  We are finally getting right down to the core of your argument.  Why don’t you tell us how your theory of marketing indoctrination applies to the HSR?

Bucyrus:

henry6:

I give up...I no longer have time to ride this merry-go-round of rhetoric.

Henry,

 

Don’t get off now.  We are finally getting right down to the core of your argument.  Why don’t you tell us how your theory of marketing indoctrination applies to the HSR?

I wouldn't mind finding out this myself. Maybe you do have a way to convince people to use trains?

blownout cylinder:

Acid Rain photos of the Black Forest wherein certain deciduous trees that had lost leaves--late October/early November tends to do that to trees around there at this time of year---the photos were supposed to depict a near leafless landscape due to acid rain yet--it became known that not only did some deciduous lose leaves but there was a certain type of evergreen lose its leaves too. OOPS. Rework the campaign...

The Black Forest consists(ed) almost entirely of conifer fir trees - not deciduous trees,has lost 25% of growth.  Other trees, such as spruce and some deciduous trees, such as birch and oak, are also affected and in other regions: the Harz Mountains, Bayernwald and the Czech Erzgebirge,

There's one thing that's generally true about a product that's being marketed.  

There's a product to market.

Can't market HSR if there isn't any (or it's not at least being seriously discussed).

 I agree with henry6.  There is little point in trying to reason with RNC/FNC "talking points."   If you want to deny global climate change, perhaps you'd like a free membership to the Flat Earth Society.

schlimm:

 I agree with henry6.  There is little point in trying to reason with RNC/FNC "talking points."   If you want to deny global climate change, perhaps you'd like a free membership to the Flat Earth Society.

If we are the only ones that have control of the climate---in that it was through the profligate use of non renewable energy, cars, disposable whatzits, meat and animal byproducts and all that then we're already too late. Global Clmate Change is here now. We can only stop doing what we are doing now and say to the knowing ones that we are under their control and teaching then-----

Because no one here wants answers, they want arguements.  No matter what answer I give there will be a counter in the form of an arguement.

Well there is a school of thought that contends that getting people out of their cars and planes, and into HSR will help the environment by reducing the carbon footprint.  However, a subdivision of that school believes that high speed component of HSR is extravagant, unnecessary, and undesirable because the high speed creates too much CO2 compared to normal speed passenger rail.  So perhaps society’s need for high speed is just one of those marketing indoctrinations that we need to change.    

henry6:

Because no one here wants answers, they want arguements.  No matter what answer I give there will be a counter in the form of an arguement.

That is where the manipulation comes in then. Assume brainwashing--then get someone like a latter day Ted Patrick--an early 70's deprogrammer. You may need either that or one of those marketing guys who can get 'an eskimo to buy a refrigerator'.

This is a tough audience. We may be too stuborn and warped to believe everything we read or hear---if one is an independent thinker they are not going to be very good at hearing the answer and leaving it at that

henry6:

Because no one here wants answers, they want arguements.  No matter what answer I give there will be a counter in the form of an arguement.

There is a difference between answers and opinions.