Layouts and layout building

Okay, here is another revised plan.  There are some things I like about this plan and some things not so much.  I have some idea for revisions but figured I'd put the plan up first and see what else you guys had to say.  If I've repeated any mistakes I'm sorry, I've been doing between 2 and 4 am local time, perhaps not the best idea but there it is.

Some highlights:

• 3 track staging yard has siding lengths of 57", 48", and 42"
• Main yard tracks are about 51", 56", 50", and 65"
• Yard Lead is 68" from Crossover A to Crossover C without obstructing Crossover B or yard switches
• Tire Plant tracks hold plenty of cars

So, what I like about the plan (and feel free to tell me if/why I shouldn't like these things :)): plenty of room in staging.  I've decided the staged transfer runs will not have engines on them; rather the yard switcher will run to staging to grab them.  This is actually prototypical as the real Eau Claire yard switcher had to go to Altoona to pick up/drop off cars.  The yard tracks are also sufficient, I think, for the intended traffic.  I narrowed the yard shelf significantly and this let me extend the peninsula, giving more room to model the US Rubber tire factory.  I also like my track arrangement on the peninsula; it let me capture the essence of the tire factory's trackage and also model some signaturre structures in the plant (particularily the power house).

 Now, what I DON'T like.  The tracks on the right shelf are too close to the wall; there's not enough room to model scenery to hide the shelf/wall joint.  The only way I can really fix this without going even tighter on the curves is to bring the yard ladder down onto the right shelf (one of stein's plan's has this setup).  This will be the likely answer because moving the tracks away from the wall and keeping the whole yard on the top shelf will make the yard too small.

I don't like the current location of the paper mill on the table edge and in front of the main/yard lead; reaching issues, etc.  I think it will be possible to fit the paper mill between the main/yard lead and the wall once the above mentioned change is made; this would help disguise the back of the layout at the same time.

 Again, any constructive criticism is welcome, and sorry if I made some of the same mistakes again, it is a process :).

Here is the picture (instead of the thumbnail) - bit easier to read.

 I'll have a closer look and maybe offer some comments a little later, right now I am heading for the gym for a workout.

 Oh - one immediate reaction - have your staging tracks branch out along the bottom (either curved or straight turnouts), so you get far longer staging tracks.

 Smile,
 Stein

hi ORM

you are on the right track, but I have some questions.

The aisle along the staging tracks is just one foot wide, to shallow for emergencies. Do you have open space beyond the staging tracks or just a wall? Should the aisle be widened up?

Did you consider lower level staging reached by a drop-in, in front of the door?

I do have some ideas, but they are pretty much related to the answers on the questions above. So before going to the drawing board........

I have some remarks and questions on the yard design as well, a picture can illustrate it much better, so you just have to wait.

Have fun, keep smiling

Paul 

The first thing I see is that the team track is served by a switchback. Switchbacks are not necessarily bad things, they just come with some baggage you should be aware of.  They do exist on the prototype where circumstances dictate - CN's trackage for GM Pontiac Assembly in Pontiac MI is one example I know of, but in that case the tail track for the switchback is dedicated, there is no rail served industry on it.  So in your case, to work the team track, you may need to pull the freight house cars first. This could either be a switching challenge or an annoyance (or both).  Byron Henderson has a good writeup of switchbacks on his website. It looks like you've got plenty of trackage for a crossing or another crossover to eliminate the issue if you want to.

It may be just too early for my brain, but I'm having trouble visualizing how the yard will be worked.  Up too late downloading Sanborn maps

How will the switcher work the yard - from the main or the paper lead?  I'm guessing the main, which is OK since there won't be any traffic for it to contend with on this layout.

What's the yard's A/D track?  I would guess the one just below the 11' mark, since it has the means for the engine to escape for inbound cuts, and runaround for cuts heading to the industres.  This means that incoming trains would take crossover C to get to it. 

The track diagrams are close but not exact.  The sanborn maps were concerned with insurance, they really didn't care whether there were two or three tracks or where the switches were, just general arrangements.  So take the track arrangements as a suggestion, not gospel.

Also if there are multiple years of maps, look at the other years.  You can see how the names of the businesses changed and sometimes other maps have more detail.  Since the sanborn maps were commercial fire insurance related if there wasn't a fire threat to commercial property, it might not be shown on the map.  Similarly railroads are self insured so they didn't spend much time cataloging rail buildings since they weren't going to be insured.

 Have had another look at your layout plan. This is not at all bad. There is a few things I would consider tweaking, but the basic plan seems reasonably sound.

 Some suggestions:

1) As Paulus pointed out - is there a wall along the left side - if so, you might need a little more aisle space along the left side of the peninsula - try for 24" aisle here (and 36" aisle elsewhere).

2) I would try to make the staging tracks longer. You now have quite a bit of yard space - four tracks of about 4 feet each - call it a max of about 8 cars per track at maximum - a yard capacity of about 24 cars when 75% full. You have over 30 car spots at the industries before you even start with the paper mill. Staging tracks seem way too short to supply a sensible number of inbound cars relative to yard capacity and industry capacity.

Try to make the staging tracks about twice as long, by making them branch out along the rear at the bottom. If necessary, I would go with two longer staging tracks instead of three shorter, but that's a judgement call, and depends on how you imagines your "work day" on the layout.

3) Maybe move crossover C down a foot or so, allowing you a longer straight stretch on the A/D track to couple a switcher to cars on a straight stretch instead of a curve.

4) I'd add an extra crossover over to the track by the freight (like the spelling, btw ;-) house, to allow access to the team track without having to remove cars from the freight house. Or maybe consider whether you can do the team track in some other way (like maybe redesignating the lowermost yard track as the team track), so it can be switched without a switchback move.

 Switchbacks are not necessarily bad on a layout, but having to remove cars from one industry to use the track for a switchback move to another industry gets boring. If two industries have to share a single track, it might be better to have them one after the other along the track - that's a more prototype-similar switching move.

 But overall - definitely looks like a promising start.

 Grin,
 Stein

Firstly, thanks for all the advice again, very constructive and usefull

 Second, yes, the aisle to the right of the peninsula is wider than shown.  The door to the room is in the lower right corner, there is a also a closet on that wall which makes it not very usefull for much of anything, so instead of trying to utilize it by making a duckunder/squeezing in tracks etc I just left it alone.  With the benchwork dimensions I've used the door can open fully.

I did consider lower level staging but the grade/track length required to clear the benchwork and give a decent amount of 'head' space for a below level staging yard was too much.

In one interation of the plan I had the staging ladder on the lower shelf; I can't fully remember why I moved it.  I think I was trying to have a runaround track for the tire plant which in the end I realized wasn't necessary but at the time the ladder was getting in the way.

Good ideas all around.  I'll try to remove the switchback/make the yard tracks purpose more clear on the next revision when I re-arrange the ladder and move it to the right shelf.

 Thanks again, and now its off to work.

Omaha Road Man:

The door to the room is in the lower right corner, there is a also a closet on that wall which makes it not very usefull for much of anything, so instead of trying to utilize it by making a duckunder/squeezing in tracks etc I just left it alone

 Sounds like a good judgement call to me to do a point to point design here and leave the lower left hand corner free of layout - switching layouts are about perfect for point-to-point configurations.

 Grin,
 Stein

hi ORM

Omaha Road Man:

the aisle to the right of the peninsula is wider than shown.

Should it be the left side? The two peninsula's were drawn because I thought there was a wall on the left side. I have drawn a version with a little bit of tinkering.

All the yard leads are doing double duty. I do not think you need to lengthen the yard tracks, but only the arr. & dep. track, so I drew the second crossover around the corner. It could be a bit more to the north.

I asumed a train coming from staging will have to drop off it cars on yard tracks 3 and 4; and pick up the cars waiting on track 1 and 2, before returning into staging.

Two local switchers were allready waiting to get their job done. While #one is classifi-ing the cars brought in, #two is picking up the outbound cars from the various spurs. If you devide your spurs in four zones, you will need an extra yard track. Some interference or struggle is going on between the two switchers, they need the same track occasionaly. When the inbound cars are classified, #one can switch the mill and the spurs around the yard, while #two switches the peninsula's. No interference in this part. When all cars are put on the right spurs the switchers go back to the service track and a wel deserved coffee; waiting for the afternoon train to arrive from staging.

May be the number of spurs is a bit big, but you will reunite the peninsula's and removing a couple of spurs won't be difficult. I have been thinking about a larger staging area under the papermill. The track start going down before the road overpass near the tyre plant, must be enough to get your track 5 to 6 inches down.

All depend on your operating scheme; on a one train a day pike you can use the main for other purposes as well.

Have fun, keep smiling
Paul

If you used a wye switch or compound switches on the staging you could gain an extra car or two capacity on the tracks.

You need a run around at the industrial areas, all the tracks break off the same way.  You might want it that way, it would be reeeeeaaaaallly easy to switch.

By the way I hope you have the Chicago & North Western Historical Society's magazine issues (North Western Lines) from 2008 #1 and 2008 #2: largely devoted to Eau Claire, lots of photos and maps.  The 2008 Annual Meet was held there.

Dave Nelson

Paul: Are the squares in that plan 1' x 1'?  Yes, I did mean the door is to the left of the peninsula, not the left.  I do really like your plan, especially the yard design.  Will probably use at least that in my next revision.

Dave H: Yeah, I'd prefer a runaround but the switcher can push its cut of cars to the plant just as easily.

 Dave N: Yup, I have both issues, very useful info.in them.

Alright, I think its really coming together now, thanks in no small part to all the advice I've gotten.

Staging and yard tracks are much longer now; the yard arrival track can hold an engine, 11 cars, and a caboose.  I wouldn't say the paper mill tracks are finalized yet but they are close.

 Mmm - no. Let your yard tracks go the other way (counterclockwise) around the curve in the upper right hand corner. Otherwise all switching of the yard has to be done through that short yard lead at the very top left.

 General design principle for point-to-point switching layouts - try to have most tracks go branch out towards the ends of the layout, not from the end of the layout towards the middle of layout - that way you can (if necessary) use half the layout as a switching lead to get stuff into or out of the tracks, instead of having to use a short tail track as a switching lead.

 Stein

I did think of that.  Problem I was running into is in order to make the yard lead long enough to be worthwhile with the yard flipped its going to be encroaching on the paper mill big time.  I will play with the yard tracks more later today now that I have everything else blocked in.  As it stands though that short lead might not be such a huge problem, it can hold an engine and 4 cars.  I figure switch runs to the plants will be around 6 cars long (incoming transfers will be 8-11 cars, some for paper mill, some for tire plant, some for freight house/team track).

 I am not certain how much of a headache it will be having to make two pulls to put together an outgoing switch job.  I know ease or operation should trump realism, but if I had to justify the setup I'd say that yard crews apparantly didn't pull full cuts off yard tracks to departure tracks.  I was re-reading the august or september (can't remember) 2000 MR the other day (the one where Tony Koester presented his new layout plan) and in his trains of though column mentioned how when he was designing his yard at Frankfurt, IN he couldn't find a yard lead long enough to pull a full cut of cars.  When he asked a friend of his who had worked the Frankfurt yard in that era his friend told him they would never pull such a long cut of cars because as they snaked through the trackage it would be impossible for the engineer to see the brakeman's hand signals, making it a dangerous move.  At most they'd pull 10-15 cars at a time and just make up a train in multiple moves.

......Yeah, I know, weak excuse.  I wouldn't mind a bit of a longer lead, even though this one will only dictate two moves to make up an outgoing train.  I will play with the plan later.  One thing I do see that I need to change though is to reverse the leftmost crossover so that the yard engine can move its cuts of cars onto the departure track, this change should be quite easy though.