Layouts and layout building

Working on a small room sized layout.  So far I've got a small yard designed for one end of the layout.  Before I filled in the rest of the layout I figured I'd ask for feedback on what I have done so far.

Whats there is labeled and pretty self explanatory.  For the rest of the layout I plan on having staging and one major industry on the peninsula (likely a tire plant) and possibly another industry (paper mill?) or group of industries in the lower right corner.  I plan on running at least two switch jobs each session, one each for the tire plant and the as of yet undetermined indutry.  The yard crew will handle switching of the yard industries.

 Thoughts?  Obvious flaws you see already in the plan?

Very short trains.  The runaround is about 30-36" long so that's about 4-5 cars in HO.

I would tie the switch lead back into the main and consider reversing the crossover between the main and the lead.  You might want to reverse that crossover and then put a right hand crossover between the main and the lead as soon as you get out of the curves.  The way it is right now ALL trains have to originate or terminate, every car goes in or out of the yard through the runaround next to the main.  Very limiting.

If most of what you are going to have are switchers, why do you need a turntable.  Unless you are going to run road steam engines or single unit F units on road trains, you don't need a turntable.  All your switchers should face to the left and they would just stay that way.

Are the shortest yard tracks long enough to hold a meaningful amount of cars?  I ask that because unless it would be devoted to being a caboose track (but even then is it enough?) my experience is that a yardmaster (often, me) just tends not to even want to bother with a super short yard track that holds just a couple of cars.   

While the yard plan is the classic fanned out concept, I would explore the compound yard lead idea that John Armstrong explores in his Track Planning for Realistic Operation.  It is a little complex to explain here but Armstrong has ideas for how to pack more car storage in the same space, at the cost it is true of "elegant" appearance.  When you mark off the fouling points and assume you don't want to park cars or engines on the turnouts themselves, it can be surprising how few cars can actually be crammed into a multi track yard that is short.  How many guys built a yard track and only then discover how many cars it can hold - that should be known and tested in advance because there are alternatives to turnout size and placement that need to be worked out at the planning stage.

When space is really tight, don't downplay the possibility of a fiddle yard where human hands do the work rather than switch engines.  That can eliminate run around or escape tracks. Indeed you can then have yard tracks that are not connected to the main at all!  An Atlas re-railer or two can eliminate turnouts in a fiddle yeard.  Just a thought,

As to the turntable, and returning again to my British style fiddle yard suggestion, the end of that yard looks like a possible place for either cassettes to move engines to other tracks, or a small sector plate of the kind Ian Rice has advocated in Model Railroad Planning..

Dave Nelson

dknelson:

While the yard plan is the classic fanned out concept, I would explore the compound yard lead idea that John Armstrong explores in his Track Planning for Realistic Operation.

Here's a comparison I did of a compound ladder vs a "standard" ladder.  The poster I drew it for was using #4 turnouts, but the same concept can be applied to higher frog numbers.  Compound ladder is on the left.

In addition to the previous comments, I would suggest flipping the ladder so that all turnouts are visible from and can be accesed easily from the aisle.  As it is now, depending on your layout height, cars on the longer body tracks will obscure the view to the turnouts in the back.  Also, if you're using ground throws, you'd have to reach over cars and tracks to move the points of turnouts in the back. 

It's also good to establish a purpose for the yard, which will be the basis for its configuration and how it is worked.  I'm guessing this yard's purpose is the terminus of an industrial branch line, since it's stub-ended and there's a turntable for the return trip of engines taking cars to and from this industrial area.  Is this what you intend?

Hope this helps

Hey, thanks for the feedback so far guys.

My planned operating scheme will feature two trains from staging (staging to be located on peninsula) each day representing transfer runs from a larger nearby yard.  The yard crew will handle switching of the frieght house, team track, and the as of yet undetermined industry next to them.  The planned tire plant on the peninsula will be served by two switch tuns a day and the industry in the lower right corner will have one to two switch runs per day.

The yard classification tracks in the current configuration have the following lengths from shortest to longest: 38.5", 47.5", 56", and 65".  I really don't plan on running very long trains, but the compound yard design looks neat, I'll probably mess around with reconfiguring the yard when I get home from work tonight.  If I were to keep the current lengths the shortest track would probably be used for cars going to be switched to the local industries.

With two trains from staging and at least two switch jobs I really wanted to model an engine terminal.  At the moment I'd probably be operating the layout alone, but if I were to ever operate in a group I think it'd add some operational interest.

 All that being said the runaround at the base of the yard is a problem; I'll play with the ideas you guys gave me and some others and see if I can make it work a bit better.

Omaha Road Man:

Thoughts?  Obvious flaws you see already in the plan?

1) Benchwork too deep (over 3 feet - reach issues)
2) In particular, turntable is in a location that makes reach way too deep.
3) Yard ladder sloping away from aisle instead of towards aisle
4) Short runaround
5) Caboose track takes runaround move with engine for all arriving trains
6) Industries in upper right hand corner (which also are too far from aisle) only accessible from yard lead

Smile,
Stein

Omaha Road Man:

My planned operating scheme will feature two trains from staging (staging to be located on peninsula) each day representing transfer runs from a larger nearby yard.  The yard crew will handle switching of the frieght house, team track, and the as of yet undetermined industry next to them.  The planned tire plant on the peninsula will be served by two switch tuns a day and the industry in the lower right corner will have one to two switch runs per day.

The yard classification tracks in the current configuration have the following lengths from shortest to longest: 38.5", 47.5", 56", and 65".  I really don't plan on running very long trains, but the compound yard design looks neat, I'll probably mess around with reconfiguring the yard when I get home from work tonight.  If I were to keep the current lengths the shortest track would probably be used for cars going to be switched to the local industries.

With two trains from staging and at least two switch jobs I really wanted to model an engine terminal.  At the moment I'd probably be operating the layout alone, but if I were to ever operate in a group I think it'd add some operational interest.

 Well, the operational interest comes more from your operations plan than from adding more tracks to your track plan.

 So - the yard you are making seems to be intended as a help for a switching crew to switch local industries - i.e. it is more of a small industrial support yard (a place to store a few inbound and outbound cars while switching an industrial district), not a bigger classification yard, where the emphasis is on efficient classification.

 That also means that a RIP track and engine service tracks would be overkill. Engine service and car repairs would most likely be done at the big yard "over yonder" (ie in staging).

 Where and when is this yard (and layout) supposedly located? Are you thinking a steam engine, or a diesel switcher. Switching jobs was one of the first applications for diesel engines.

 Hmmm - you get an inbound transfer run from the bigger yard (i.e. from staging) of e.g. 8-10 cars in the morning (and that engine will take 8-10 outbound cars back to your yard).

 You now have at least 8-10 inbound cars to distribute out of your little support yard your local switcher crew comes on duty.  These cars needs to be distributed to five industries: a local freight house (btw - note spelling of "freight" - e before i), a local team track and an unidentified local industry, a tire plant (to be built on the peninsula) and a last industry (to be built in the lower right hand corner of your layout)

 So we are talking pretty short trains here  - a maximum of 2-4 inbound cars for each of your industries.

 Do you need to reconsider the size of your staging (or pre-stage some more cars on the visible layout at the start of the day - "having been dropped off by the night transfer before the local switcher crew comes on duty") ?

 You certainly do not need an engine terminal at this yard. A single switcher could cover this entire industrial area, and it does not need to have engine service facilities here - engine service would most likely be done at the bigger yard where your transfer runs come from.

 But if you want a dedicated switcher engine for e.g. the tire plant (for a second operator, or for variety), you could make a little shed for it down at the tire plant (or just park it on a piece of track down by the tire plant).

 And then you either have the yard crew drop off the cut for the tire plant somewhere down there (which the dedicated tire plant switcher will then move around and spot inside the tire plant property), or you have the tire plant switcher come up and and get it's cut of inbound cars (let's say maybe 4-5 cars) from a track at the support yard, while dropping off outbound cars from the tire plant.

 Anyways - you are probably catching my drift - by thinking about what kind of operations the yard will need to support, you can start thinking about how big it needs to be.

 Maybe all you need is a double ended siding and a single ended track or two off the main where you can hold maybe a total of 10-12 cars total while you are switching, using the main (or "running track" through the industrial district) as a switching lead, instead of having three classification tracks, a dedicated A/D track, an yard lead, a RIP track and a turntable ?

 An example of such a place is the Norfolk Southern's North Durham (SC) yard - shown in Andy Sperandeo's book "Freight Yards":

Another example is shown in Linda Sand's 5x9 foot design from the article "Big City Railroading don't require big spaces" from Model Railroad Planning 1999 - here is a plan for a 6x10 space (where the yard takes about 6 feet by 18", but is big enough to support the local industries it need to support)

 Lots of options here. But start by thinking about what your yard needs to support first, instead of first making the yard.

 Smile,
 Stein

Wow, thanks for the well thought out reply, really appreciated.  One question though, the benchwork in the yard area is not over three feet wide, its exactly three feet wide.  Not trying to split hairs here, just not sure if it makes a difference or not.  Is three feet still too wide?

 My layout concept is loosely based on Eau Claire, WI circa 1950.  Besides having a passenger station (was a stop on the CNW's '400' train) Eau Claire had a small yard, freight (:)) house, team track, large tire plant, paper mill, and another industrial district.  The small yard and all industries were serviced by one engine and engine service was taken care of at the main yard in Altoona, a short distance to the east.

I guess I was trying to stretch out the concept too much; ie add more jobs than really needed.  I see what you're getting at and will hit the drawing board again.  The second plan you linked is very close to the idea I had in my head.

Omaha Road Man:

Wow, thanks for the well thought out reply, really appreciated.  One question though, the benchwork in the yard area is not over three feet wide, its exactly three feet wide.  Not trying to split hairs here, just not sure if it makes a difference or not.  Is three feet still too wide?

 About 2 feet (24 inches) is a recommended maximum for how deep into a scene you would  want to reach, when the scene is at a reasonable height (ie about chest height). Less if you have structures up front that you don't want to crush or displace with your elbows.

 If you have your layout below waist level (and you are tall and thin and numble), you can reach further (up to about 36"), but the view will be more like a helicopter pilot view of the scene (looking down on the scene, instead of you looking into the scene), which will pretty mess up your chances of making e.g. background flats look good.

 I'd try to keep all tracks within 20-24" from the aisle, if at all possible.

 My layout concept is loosely based on Eau Claire, WI circa 1950.  Besides having a passenger station (was a stop on the CNW's '400' train) Eau Claire had a small yard, freight (:)) house, team track, large tire plant, paper mill, and another industrial district.  The small yard and all industries were serviced by one engine and engine service was taken care of at the main yard in Altoona, a short distance to the east.

I guess I was trying to stretch out the concept too much; ie add more jobs than really needed.  I see what you're getting at and will hit the drawing board again.  The second plan you linked is very close to the idea I had in my head.

 The really hard part is to figure out what to not include.  That usually includes some hard choices.

 Byron Henderson came up with an illuminating phrase about that - we have all probably heard about "selective compression" (how to drop some parts of a scene to make it fit, making tracks shorter etc).

 He pointed out that a good idea might be to look for compressed selections instead - ie to look for small scenes from real life to model, instead of trying a big bite and trying to compress it a lot. It is a good idea. One which is hard to follow for most of us (including myself).

 Btw - don't forget that if you go N scale instead of H0 scale, you magically gain about 1.8 times the length (since N is 1:160 and H0 is 1:87.1) - if you have a track length that can hold 10 cars in H0 scale, the same length on your layout can hold about 18 cars in N scale.

 Smile,
 Stein

 Had a look at the 1931 Sanborn maps of Eau Claire. Two scenes that looks promising for compressive selection/selective compression is the CMStP & P (I think it says) tracks at the confluence of Eau Claire River and the Chippewa River (?), and the Soo Line tracks just South of Eau Claire River, near Gibson Street.

 The Chippewa River yard (my label for it - I have no clue what it really was called) is a small pass-through industry support yard with a couple of double ended sidings and industries off the sidings again, while the Gibson Street yard (again - my label) seems to be a stub ended small Freight house yard with a couple of industries off the tracks.

 Chippewa River location, western half:

Chippewa River location, eastern half:

Gibson road location:

I think the Chippewa River type Yard looks most promising for your space - can be modelled as a slimmer profile for a shelf layout, maybe something like this:

 Here you got about 11-12 cars spots at the three industries (you can also spot cars on two tracks for the freight house, or use the second track from the freight house as an overflow storage track for inbound or outbound cars).

  Should be possible to haul in about 10-11 car trains in transfer runs from staging, and if you use part of the team track and the second warehouse track for temporary storage while sorting and switching cars, you should be able to sort a sufficient number of cars.

  But you could also model a Gibson road style yard. Haven't drawn up a plan of that one.

  Industries you can of course mix and match as you like, if you want to just get a general flavor of Eau Claire in the 50s (rather than to model a specific location). So I used the ones you already had, instead of the ones that were at these locations in 1931.

  Haven't made any attempt to draw the two industries on the lower right hand and lower left hand corner of your layout - but there should be a reasonable amount of space for those two industries, plus a couple of staging tracks for 10-car trains down there, depending on where things like doors and windows and other things you need access to are located in your layout room.

 Same principle applies there - try to make industry tracks at least long enough for 3-5 cars, and try to make the industries look big enough to require rail service (ie make them multi-floor buildings, and model just one end of the building, making the viewer feel like there is more behind what he or she can see).

 Smile,
 Stein

Again, thank you very much for your sound advice and help.  One quick question though, where are you accessing the digital sanborn maps?  I was aware of there existance before but always had problems getting them online.  Just now I looked at my local library's site and even though some maps should be free it doesn't seem to be working properly (of course).  I wouldn't mind paying a small fee to access these as they of course are very usefull.

 The two yards you found are the Soo Line's yard and the Milwaukee Road's yard (known at the time as the St. Paul road).  Both these railroads crossed the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis, and Omaha (Omaha Road, part of the C&NW system) just east of the yard I was trying to represent.  Please understand I'm not nitpicking here; it was never my intent to model exact track arrangements in this space anyway-though if it could be worked out that would be a bonus.

'Someday' when I have a whole basement to use Eau Claire will just be one end of my much larger layout depicting the Omaha Road in western Wisconsin.  For now my space (and modeling ability) limits what I can model.

Omaha Road Man:

Again, thank you very much for your sound advice and help.  One quick question though, where are you accessing the digital sanborn maps? 

 umi.com, but you need to access them from a library that has a subscription

 URL: http://sanborn.umi.com/cgi-bin/auth.cgi?command=ShowLogin
 

 

 The two yards you found are the Soo Line's yard and the Milwaukee Road's yard (known at the time as the St. Paul road). 

 Of course! I should have remembered that, but for some reason it totally slipped my mind. Thanks! 

 

Both these railroads crossed the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis, and Omaha (Omaha Road, part of the C&NW system) just east of the yard I was trying to represent. 

 Oh - finally found the Omaha Road yard - a little to the north of the Milwaukee Road yard I had found .- map squares 37, 39, 40 and 41 in the 1931-1950 map collection for Eau Claire, Wisconsin.

Please understand I'm not nitpicking here; it was never my intent to model exact track arrangements in this space anyway-though if it could be worked out that would be a bonus.

 Not a problem at all - I just enjoyed looking at the maps for Eau Claire and trying to find a yard that would fit into 2 x 9 feet around the corner.

 You obviously can do a similar thing with the Omaha Road yard in Eau Claire.

 

'Someday' when I have a whole basement to use Eau Claire will just be one end of my much larger layout depicting the Omaha Road in western Wisconsin.  For now my space (and modeling ability) limits what I can model.

 I know what you mean - I am modeling in a basement room that is just 6.5 x 11.5 feet. My layout plan is inspired by (with quite a bit of modeler's license) the Omaha Road in the Warehouse district of Minneapolis around 1956-57 (just prior to the Omaha Road being absorbed by the C&NW).

 Don't expect to get any more room anytime soon, though :-)

 Best of luck with your design!  Let us see some pictures when the building starts, eh ?

 Smile,
 Stein

steinjr:

 University of Michigan, free for non-commercial use.

 URL: http://sanborn.umi.com/cgi-bin/auth.cgi?command=ShowLogin
 user: proquest
 pw: welcome 

I had no idea that was free - I always stopped cold at the login page. 

And now I see that typing "sandborn maps free" in a Google search would have clued me in too. 

I will be very busy tonight

odave:

steinjr:

 University of Michigan, free for non-commercial use.

 URL: http://sanborn.umi.com/cgi-bin/auth.cgi?command=ShowLogin
 user: proquest
 pw: welcome 

I had no idea that was free - I always stopped cold at the login page. 

 Me too - until I learned otherwise by a poster in the Yahoo LDSIG forum a few days ago. I am also a rather happy camper right now  

 Big grin,
 Stein

Oh, these maps are just FANTASTIC.  I've been trying to figure out for quite some time how I was going to manage to model the track arrangments in the US Rubber plant, and here its all laid out!  Heck, the buildings are even labeled so I can figure out what went where as far as cars go.

 Thank you very much!