Layouts and layout building

Hello. First post as I have not found a definite answer to my dilemma. About two years ago I inherited everything needed to create a huge HO scale layout. I have engines, rolling stock, models, flex track, turnouts...you name it. I kind of want to realize my father's dream of building a layout, but I have never done anything of the sort. I have enough to fill a basement but not a basement to fill. I have a 10'6" x 10 area that can eventually increase to 10'6" x 15. Unfortunately this is all the space I can get for now. Should I start smaller than the 10 x 10? My main issue is that most of the engines are from a mix of eras. I have long steam engines, modern triple axle diesels and a Santa Fe Super Chief ABBA with DCC and sound. Actually, everything I have is Santa Fe. Do I need to be concerned about era or just build something to run it all? I can add a large staging yard to the layout as an extension to store the engines and rolling stock if needed. I know that is a lot to ask and I kind of rambled, but like I said, I need direction. I can provide a photo of the basement area if needed.

  There are numerous books on RR planing and construction. As to an era to model you can do anything you wish. There are model RR that change eras as the owner wishes. Buildings and cars, trains and little figures get swapped to run any era. I have a friends layout that is set in the 80s and he runs steam excursions very frequently. I mostly model the early transition era but have a few modern diesels cause I like the paint jobs. My GE AC4400 has pulled a few trains of H21 hoppers with an N5 cabin on the tail.

   You as the owner is also the CEO, CFO, can do his RR any way he wishes. No one into model RR I know will never say do this or do that. We can advise you on construction or troubleshooting problems but will never look down at what you build and what era you model. Do what you like, like what you do.

   Pete

RealSturat:

I kind of want to realize my father's dream of building a layout, but I have never done anything of the sort.

So I say start with something small.

I have a 10'6" x 10 area that can eventually increase to 10'6" x 15. Unfortunately this is all the space I can get for now. Should I start smaller than the 10 x 10?

You can plan a 10x10 and start with a smaller part of it.

My main issue is that most of the engines are from a mix of eras. I have long steam engines, modern triple axle diesels and a Santa Fe Super Chief ABBA with DCC and sound. Actually, everything I have is Santa Fe. Do I need to be concerned about era or just build something to run it all?

Yup.  What you do is choose an era for the scenery and track plan and then don't worry that some of the trains are out of time. Just put the stuff that doesn't match away for photo shoots.

I can add a large staging yard to the layout as an extension to store the engines and rolling stock if needed. I know that is a lot to ask and I kind of rambled, but like I said, I need direction.

One thing at a time. Did your father happen to have written anything of this dream down?  That might help focus on something specific.    To this point specifically a staging yard is for staging not storage.  Quite different operational concepts.  I would not worry about that yet, especially if it can be added later.

locoi1sa:

You as the owner is also the CEO, CFO, can do his RR any way he wishes. No one into model RR I know will never say do this or do that. We can advise you on construction or troubleshooting problems but will never look down at what you build and what era you model. Do what you like, like what you do.

Yeah, but following the "do what ever you want" advice too far and you might end up looking down on yourself.  I know many people who look back wonder what they were thinking and wished they would have thought about what they wanted would end up looking like in the finished product.

 

Thanks all. I had another interesting question. My house is new construction built last year. So the basement is unfinished. The walls have a white hanging insulation about half way up. But I thought if I completely walled that in it would reduce my already limited size availability in the room. Should I just build to the cement wall and then place a backdrop in front of the insulation?

RealSturat:

the basement is unfinished. The walls have a white hanging insulation about half way up. But I thought if I completely walled that in it would reduce my already limited size availability in the room. Should I just build to the cement wall and then place a backdrop in front of the insulation?

Depends on how you finish the wall.  Fir strips and extruded foam insulation isn't that thick.  It also depends on how much humidity and mold is going to be an issue.   In front of the insulation won't be a problem, but eventually dirt will "sift" out of the unfinished concrete.   At a minimum I would paint it with cement sealer.  Once again though, it does depend on where this is and what future humidity problems might concept.

The basement is dry. There is already heat and ductwork down there. I also run a dehumidifier down there as well. Thanks for the response TZ.

 Adding to Zephyr's comments ...  don't forget the ceiling (along with the walls).  Nothing like dust and dirt raining down on the layout.  Make sure there is adequate power and outlets for lighting and layout power.  Track lighting is not all that expensive and is rather flexible and can be surface mounted.

And not to sound like a broken record (bad analogy for a digital age?) - I would recommend reading John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation, Third Edition; available here from Kalmbach or for less from other e-tailers.  It won't help deciding on an era but for track planning I consider it a must read.

Alan

PS
Kudos on why you are doing this.  I missed an opportunity to build a layout for someone I loved and lost.  I have a second chance now and am committed to doing it before it get's too late.

 

 

Hi Real,

you have got a nice present; designing a good railroad is not easy. Mistakes are often made and regretted later on.

Your space is what is called roomsized; not bad but not very large also. A problem you might encounter  are those long steamers. They love big radii and long switches, you should be more specific but with a little bit of bad luck your engines will need at least a 30" radius. Not only for good looks but to avoid derailment after derailment. Getting a 30" radius into a rather small pike like yours will turn out to be difficult. 

The nice ABBA-set is fine for a mainline, alas again you will need much space to model it properly.

RealSturat:

or just build something to run it all?

TMHO just building something will lead only to dust a gathering pike.

Trackplanning for Realistic Operation, written by John Armstrong almost 50 years ago is still a must have. The 102 Realistic Trackplans is a nice buy also; Andy Sperandeo made it a shortened version of John Armstrong's book. These books might give you an idea about the possibilities in your space.

Some websides to study:

Chip Engelmann's talking about all his mistakes as a newbie:  http://www.chipengelmann.com/

Byron Henderson's checklist for potential customers and so much more (an outstanding webside): http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc/id13.html or http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery

Layout Design SIG primer: http://macrodyn.com/ldsig/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Primer

Have fun, keep smiling

Paul

  

  

Paulus Jas:

written by John Armstrong almost 50 years ago is still a must have

 

Armstrong updated the original in 1997 (c. 1998) which allowed him to accommodate the 60 to 85 ft freight cars, new industries (like intermodal) etc. into his thinking.   Given the 10ft width of the room, 30 inch curves are difficult, but if a continuous run is desired, stacking the turn-around blobs of a dog-bone or waterwing design is a good approach (discussed in the book).

 You didn't really say what your experience level is unless I missed it.  I would advise you to start with a small layout and just run the smaller equipment to start.  Most first time model railroads don't last because the builder sees his mistakes and wants to start over.  If you build it small, it will not bankrupt you when you tear it down.  Plus you will gain a lot of experience building it.  And as you build it, you will be doing some research about how to do things.  You will run accross all sorts of new ideas that you can use on your next layout that no one has mentioned yet.  It will also let you know if you really want to continue in the hobby.  Of course it is fun for all of us here on the fourms, but model railroading isn't for everyone.

Hope this helps.

Sorry if I forgot to list my skill level. But I am definitely a beginner. When you say small do you mean a 4 x 8 layout or that like? Everyone's advice definitely is helping me. It seems my greatest expense will be to hang drywall in the room. Which I need to do first since finishing the entire basement is years away. Looks like that can be my winter project. Past that I was thinking perhaps a simple around the walls layout 9 x 11 size, but the surface area would not be much more that the 4 x 8. For simplicity I was figuring a plywood bench with 1" or 2" foam with little elevation changes for the first layout.

 hi Real,

small? better go for: not to complicated or not to big. You could make a great start by drawing your room.In 102 Realistic Track plans published by our host you will find how to do it properly. A book worth its money anyhow and you can bring, if you like to do so, the drawing in to this forum.

RealSturat:

Past that I was thinking perhaps a simple around the walls layout 9 x 11 size, but the surface area would not be much more that the 4 x 8.

 

If I understand you well, you mean that you can build a 9x11 sized pike and that the resulting train space is about the same as on a 8x4; you hit the nail on the head.

 

A sheet of 5x9 is cut into pieces and rearanged into an other footprint. Both need the same space; train- and manspace are flipped.

But the resulting pike can accomodate so much larger radii, has so much more length and... and..... The result is a shelf-layout along the walls. Ian Rice wrote a book about these layouts, and Lance Minheim not only wrote such a book too, but called his design and building entreprise "The Shelf Layout Company". Need I say more? You inherited some big engines and and coaches, they will love those bigger radii and that longer mainline. That  9x11 is a great start!!!!

The Hog is a beginners layout, wel covered on the internet, to show what can be done with one sheet of a 4x8 piece of plywood. It fills a 9x9 space. 
BTW when you apply a layer of plywood you do not necessarily need foam and when you use foam you do necessarily need a plywood layer under it.

TMHO most people chose to build a 8x4 because they think it is easy.  In reality it is just as complicated as any other kind of build and is resulting most of the time in a bad trackplan only.

In the very same 102 trackplans these issues are covered too. The famous book Trackplanning for Realistic Operation by the late John Armstrong covers these issues in depth. The first edition was written 50 yrs ago, but newer editions are updated and worth every penny. The book has chapters on the prototype, on setting standards to get reliable operation, on technical  backgrounds (overhang, switch numbers, etc) and on how to apply those when designing your own pike.

A far more complicated switching design that fits your space, designed for the Omaha Road Man.

 

The tracks to the very left, that seem to go under the Fire Stone plant, are supposed to be an interchange with "the rest of the world", so called staging. A lot can be done in your space.

Keep smiling, have fun

Paul

 

 

Thanks Paul! Great examples. I definitely think the way to go will be a shelf layout of some type. From what I have seen here, it seems to be a similar effort to an 8 x 4 when it comes to train space but will open up many more possibilities. My friend has a book with another layout called the "Wildcat Central" which I found on the MR site. That looks to be something that may fill my needs as well. Oh, and I have drawn out the room already. In the future there will be room for additions into a larger area. I just did not want to start that large. Definitely looking forward to the future and building this. Sounds like it will be a ton of fun.

e more fun in your life.

I had the same problem six years ago.  I settled on a 10 x 6 layout so that I could easily get around all tne sides to work.  I found a layout in Model railroader that I could fit 24" and 26" curves and # 8 switches that will make your big locos look good going around curves. Find a good hobby shop and lay lay your trackwork with great care.  You'll never have more fun.

Doug 

 

I have photos of the area I can use in my basement. Would it be beneficial to post those here? How can I post the photos?