Passenger

The recent conference on nationwide HSR has defined new names.  Since we Americans call Acela "High Speed Rail" the new nationwide 220 MPH system is cleverly going to be called "Very High Speed Rail."

aegrotatio:

The recent conference on nationwide HSR has defined new names.  Since we Americans call Acela "High Speed Rail" the new nationwide 220 MPH system is cleverly going to be called "Very High Speed Rail."

Did the "Wise Men and Women" who attended the conference on nationwide HSR offer a detailed plan on how they propose to pay for it?  For a nation with federal and government debt totaling $13.8 trillion, which is projected to grow to $22.8 trillion in 2019, as well as an estimated $43 trillion of unfunded liabilities (Social Security, Medicare, Military Pensions, etc.), those advocating a passenger rail system that will require massive government (federal, state, and local) funding should offer a detailed plan on how they plan to pay for it. 

 Although having ultimate speed goals of 150 or 200 or 220 mph is fine, we need to be realists about wise use of financial resources.  The true goal should be to reduce the travel time between major population centers.  The highest speed is only one factor.  Reduction in the number and extent of lower speed stretches of trackage and elimination of slow-downs and stops for other (freight) trains can provide huge gains in overall average speed.   Without those (cheaper) improvements, VHSR only allows for marginal time improvements at a very high cost.

If service between CHI and MSP could operate at an average of only (!) 110 mph and thus make the 418 mile run in 3 hours 45 minutes, it could be quite competitive with air and road. Contrast that with the current 8 hours, 15 minutes.

schlimm:

 Although having ultimate speed goals of 150 or 200 or 220 mph is fine, we need to be realists about wise use of financial resources.  The true goal should be to reduce the travel time between major population centers.  The highest speed is only one factor.  Reduction in the number and extent of lower speed stretches of trackage and elimination of slow-downs and stops for other (freight) trains can provide huge gains in overall average speed.   Without those (cheaper) improvements, VHSR only allows for marginal time improvements at a very high cost.

If service between CHI and MSP could operate at an average of only (!) 110 mph and thus make the 418 mile run in 3 hours 45 minutes, it could be quite competitive with air and road. Contrast that with the current 8 hours, 15 minutes.

Californias HSR is proposing 2Hr 30 minute timings on non-stops between LA and SF. And that is downtown to downtown something impossible to do if flying today. Remember the coast line requires over thrice the proposed time between LA and SF.  I doubt if the money was spent on the coast line it would be next to impossible to achieve 110 mph service and would not serve the numbers of people the proposed valley route will.

Al - in - Stockton

In order to maintain an Avg. speed of 110 MPH, speeds would have to exceed 110 mph to account for acceleration, deaccelaration and boarding times and therefore would require a ROW completely separate from freight tracks, not a mere upgrade of existing track. Now,I don't disagree with you. A few hundred million could really go a long way on the CHI-MSO corridor, but the end result will never be close to HSR. A true HSR in the heartlands would require tens of billions.

At the risk of drawing a bad analogy, Very High Speed Rail is starting to sound similar to the Supersonic Transport of the 1960's.  It looked really good on paper but the expense of developing the concept and the lack of a real market for such service doomed it to economic failure.

CSSHEGEWISCH:

At the risk of drawing a bad analogy, Very High Speed Rail is starting to sound similar to the Supersonic Transport of the 1960's.  It looked really good on paper but the expense of developing the concept and the lack of a real market for such service doomed it to economic failure.

I suspect that is all too true.  But a pretty high speed (sustained average speed for the route)  of 100+ with convenient, frequent service on fairly short routes sounds feasible.

If you go to this link and then to the Amtrak critical study section, there is some interesting info/propaganda.

oltmannd:

For trips of 300 mile or less, door to door times driving are roughly the same as flying, so for rail service to be competitive, it has to roughly equal the door to door driving time.

Could be workable for even more than 300 miles.   For example, Chicago to Minneapolis/St.Paul (~400 miles), is a flying time of about 90 minutes.  Add to that getting to/from the airports to the downtowns (about 2 hours?) , allow the one hour for boarding, and you have ~4 1/2 hrs.   A train that can sustain 100 mph average would take about 4 hours.  If you drove it would take (according to Google) 6 hrs. 15 mins. for the 400 miles.  If one drives a bit faster, maybe that could be done in under 6 hrs.  Sound pretty competitive to me.  In pre-Amtrak days, the three competing rail routes managed the trip in just under seven hours.  A route between those two metro areas should probably include Madison as well as Milwaukee on the way to include maximum population.

 Good points, all, but the conference specifically stated that the "Very High Speed Rail" is on dedicated rights-of-way.

It's a pie-in-the-sky concept which, if implemented, would be great, but the viability of a dedicated "very high-speed rail network" is definitely a fantasy in the USA.  No freight on these lines.  Think Japan's Shinkansen or any of the German/French/etc high-speed rail networks that are dedicated to high-speed passenger-only systems.

A boondoggle by any other name is still a boondoggle...

Chuck

aegrotatio:

 Good points, all, but the conference specifically stated that the "Very High Speed Rail" is on dedicated rights-of-way.

It's a pie-in-the-sky concept which, if implemented, would be great, but the viability of a dedicated "very high-speed rail network" is definitely a fantasy in the USA.  No freight on these lines.  Think Japan's Shinkansen or any of the German/French/etc high-speed rail networks that are dedicated to high-speed passenger-only systems.

 

yeah right----

The Shinkansen and all the French/German networks 'work' in their contexts. The expenditure there would be no where near what a trans continental VHSR 'dedicated' rail system would cost in our contexts. There had been at least 35 years of yip up here to do a Windsor--Quebec City VHSR system--even 'dedicated' yet. The Turboliner was supposedly meant to be used in that sense but--sheeesh, the number of times it went PTOOF was amazing!!

 It's just another way for certain big boys to play with their toys

aegrotatio:

Good points, all, but the conference specifically stated that the "Very High Speed Rail" is on dedicated rights-of-way.

It's a pie-in-the-sky concept which, if implemented, would be great, but the viability of a dedicated "very high-speed rail network" is definitely a fantasy in the USA.  No freight on these lines.  Think Japan's Shinkansen or any of the German/French/etc high-speed rail networks that are dedicated to high-speed passenger-only systems.

I have been unable to find a report from that conference, but I think it is an awfully big jump to assume they meant a coast-to-coast VHSR net.  Maybe east coast, some midwest, some south, some Texas and west coast.  If they did mean transcontinental and all over the place, then I agree, it is a nightmarish fantasy in cost.