Layouts and layout building

I'm Back! After taking a month or so to reconsider what I want, the space I have, and how I can achieve those goals, I've come back with version 5.1 of the Alaska Pacific that I'd like to build to replace my current layout. This new version incorporates an "around the walls" type plan, and would be intended to someday have a 2nd deck. For your consideration, however, I only have completed the base level, and even that is not totally complete as there are a couple of areas I'm not sure how to handle.

 
And here's a link to a larger version: http://www.arterius.com/aprr_layout/v5.1/akrr_deck1_large.png

I generally like the direction I'm headed. Sure, there is a quite a bit of engineering/planning to do, but I'm looking for feedback on the relative "sanity" of the layout plan as it stands now. I appreciate your feedback. And again, thank you in advance. (Also, if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post a link to the XTrackCad file for the layout.)

Now for the mental dump:

Primarily I'd like to better integrate a possible diesel/car shop into the main yard (maybe a fueling facility). I'm thinking that the northern right-most corner makes sense for such a facilit, but it could prove difficult to reach. I'd also like a small helper terminal in the bottom right near the grain silo. I've studied the Utah Railway helper terminals in Helper (via Bing and Google Earth), but I'm not quite sure how to incorporate such a facility.

The other main thing I'm struggling with is a staging area. I've tried a number of ideas to get trains on a level lower than the the main deck, but nothing I've come up with has been pleasing so far. I'm very open to suggestions.

Now, you might also be thinking "What is that big penninsula in the middle?" Well, the idea is that it will be a scenic'd mountainous helix to take trains from the base deck to an upper deck. I have a preliminary idea of how the track will twist/wind it's way up, with a coal mine on the way up. I'm not sure how logical that is, but I hate to waste a rather large space in the middle of the room that *could* have tracks on it. I realize I could build a conventional helix, but integrating an elongated helix into a mountain scene seemed a lot more "economical" as far as using space goes. (And I do realize it impedes movement around the layout as bit as trains don't necessarily have to ascend the grade but could simply loop to the other side of the layout.) Currently, all of the aisle widths are 24" to 30", with one narrow angle at 22".

I've tried to maintain 30" - the only exceptions are near switches, where I've had to compromise down to about 25" in a couple of lengths (highlighted in the image with magenta). I suppose I did have to compromise in the helix as well - it's double tracked with 2.5" spacing. The outer track is 29.5" while the inner is 27". In the quasi-mockup I built, my rolling stock appears to handle it relatively well.

The yard area on the upper left would be the main "city", but would be somewhat small. On the left side, just north of the furnace there is an open area with no bench work - this would be a lift gate of some kind. And there would be a smallish town directly north of that lift gate.

Passenger operations are a must, as are some basic Alaskan commodities (oil, coal, rock, etc). There's a bit of "imagination" going on as well, as I also want to have a grain elevator and a few fields. (Yes, I know - in my many trips to Alaska I can't think of a single grain elevator I remember seeing... but I think they look neat, so it has to be there. ;-) )

The to-be-designed upper deck would not be as deep as the lower deck, and would have 2 towns. Neither would have a significant yard, but one might have an small intermodal facility. There would also be oil operations on the upper deck - oil loading facilities. There would also be a small area representing a wheat/grain operation of some kind. I'm obviously open for other ideas. My wonderful wife also thought I could use a car float... so she got me the Walther's Car Float for my birthday. (Didn't ask for it, but hey - she got me something railroad related, so I can't complain too much.) So I guess I could somehow incorporate a Whittier-like or Seward-like scene somewhere. I'm extremely open to ideas.

As background reference:

This is the initial thread in which Paul and others got me rethinking the base idea: Initial Thread

Here is the layout "area" (it's not entirely a room, as part of it has no walls, and likely won't for many, many years to come):

I urge a run-around track somewhere near every switch-able industry. 

Dave Nelson

Just a few thoughts:

I'm not sure how traffic is going to flow on your plan - drawing a schematic will help.  Bascally, a schematic is what the track looks like when you cut the loop and unwind it into a straight line, with the towns/industrial areas labeled. This helps define where your layout connects to the outside (un-modeled) world and how traffic will flow in, through, and out the layout.  It will clarify what the purpose of that yard is, and where the staging tracks should feed in & out. 

It can be hard on operators when a main line runs across the base of a peninsula, which is what you have by the furnace.  Someone operating a train cannot follow it continuously to the other side. I have operated on a layout where this was the case, and it was a little nerve wracking to have my train out of sight while I walked around to the other side of the peninsula, at the same time dodging around other operators trying to do their work.  This area by the furnace seems to be a logical place for staging to plug in & out - probably with the staging yard under the peninsula.  The cutoff track could be kept for continuous display running.  Again, a schematic will help clarify this.

On the other thread, both you and Paul utilized some space to the left of the furnace.  Why is did you exclude it on this plan?

That's it for now...

hi AJ,

when we met before I told you I heard alarmbells ringing. The Alaska RR is so well known I would love to see it back in your plan. Your wife presented you a ferry and you want to keep your marriage so I'll tell what I was looking for.

A nice harbour (Whittier) scene with on the background one of these big cruiseboats, dwarfing the little trains waiting for passengers. A single track line going into a tunnel, shared with Fords, Chevies and trucks. Then over a single track line, up to a junction with the line to Seward along beautifull scenery, before going up North through unspoiled nature.

What I see is a double track generic plan with no end or begin, packed with action. I do not mean to say you have a bad plan, I just do not see Alaska.

You have to fill me in on this one: I asume your wife's present was a barge, as on sir Madoq's design for Whittier. Must it in reality be one of those big ocean going vessels?

Two concerns:

O'Dave is right, the line over the drop-in could go down into underground staging, the line from the other side can go up to a second level. The connection will do a great job in stage one; and can be used for laprunning to show off your pike when visiters are around later.

The peninsula used as a elongated helix seems a nice idea, it has a track-length of about 40 feet, sufficient to gain 12 inches in altitude, with a 2.5% grade. May be not enough to get to a second deck.

Just like O"Dave I would also like to know why the use of the alcove is out. My thinking right now is going back to an idea you presented earlier on. The lower level is somewhere along the UP in the NW and is mysteriously connected with the Alaska Road on a second level.

Design wise I would start with a shematic and a rough footprint, like the plan I have drawn for you in your previous thread. And when that footprint is based on a prototypical situation, it is even better. Then you know where your yard has to be, what functions it has to perform, etc.

A lot of words, just trying to tell you I can't focus my thoughts.

Hopefully I can help you better next time,

have fun, keep smiling

Paul

 The pressing issue is "why is the alcove out?" Simple answer: diplomacy. In order to extend the pike further south into an already used storage area, I am required to relocate many of those items to another location - this being the "alcove." I personally like the idea of extending the layout to the south, rather than a blob to the side. Just presonal preference, I guess.

 And yes - this design is actually about a week or so old, so I've not integrated the barge in yet. I had shown her your suggestion some time ago and I think that's where she got the idea of "he needs a barge!" Thanks Paul. :-) . I've been muddling in my head on how to integrate the barge into the layout. I like the idea of turning the town area (as I described, and influenced from your diagram) on the left to a Whittier/Seward. I definitely don't have the space (or desire) to model a full seaport, but Whittier is actually fairly small and suites the general theme fairly well.

 As for the mountainous helix, I've done some creative criss-crossing, and ended up with a grade of about 1.9% and a rise of roughly 18", as I also traverse the mountain twice. I'm not at my desktop, so I can't post an image, but I'll do that shortly. That's an interesting idea of having the Pacific NW on the lower level and Alaska on the upper, with the mountainous helix being the magic "tunnel" that connects them. That would allow the somewhat-out-of-place "prairie" in a logical place (the plains of Washington), and then possibly allow for modeling something fun like the Al-Can Highway on the penninsula.

The idea of adjusting some altitudes so the lift out goes to a staging area is interesting. Let me ponder that and come up with a better labeled image so we can talk particulars. And to clarify, are you talking about placing the staging as part of the peninsula, but just at a lower elevation? That's a really interesting idea... And I'm guessing (without measurements on this laptop), that I could get 3 or so tracks in a return loop configuration under there. Hrm - I like that idea. That would also allow me to start the incline to the upper level further south (potentially).

In all honesty, I've tried to translate my ideas into a track plan schematic, without much success. I've read and reread the chapter in Track Planning for Realistic Operatoin, but for whatever reason I just can't grasp the technique. I'll give it another go, though.

Thank you all again for your thoughts. I'll see about making some adjustments in the next day or so and post back.

Paulus Jas:

You have to fill me in on this one: I asume your wife's present was a barge, as on sir Madoq's design for Whittier. Must it in reality be one of those big ocean going vessels?

 To answer your question on that point... No, it doesn't. The Whittier Barge is actually quite large. Much larger in scale than the Walther's barge that my dear wide purchased for me. So I'm guessing a simple "representation" approach would be sufficient. I really don't have a desire to model the entire barge operation. Highlighting that it exists is probably sufficient.

For those interested, here's a video of the crates being offloaded from the top of the barge: Video And here's the Lynden Alaska Marine Lines webcam page: Webcams

ajmott:

In all honesty, I've tried to translate my ideas into a track plan schematic, without much success. I've read and reread the chapter in Track Planning for Realistic Operatoin, but for whatever reason I just can't grasp the technique.

It is a bit of a mind-warp that takes some getting used to.  I'll give it a go based on the image you posted above.

Imagine I took a big pair of scissors and cut your main line between the furnace and the intake pipe (an arbitrary location, where the correct world-break is would be up to you). Now I take the two free ends and bend them up and stretch everything out so it's competely straight.  Just for grins I'll call the left end of the now straight-line pike "West" and the right end "East".   The "scenic'd" layout would be everything between the two crossovers I added for staging access from the top main. 

So I think the result would be this:

(some yard tracks left out for clarity, trackage I added is in red)

 Now you have a picture of your pike and how it relates to the outside world.  Through trains come from "Points West" and travel through to "Points East", and vice-versa.  Locals can be made up in the yard to serve the mine branch or the other towns you have on the main line.

I think you're heading in a good direction, but it feels like more refinement of the concept is needed before the details are hammered out. 

It sounds like you've got a new update coming.  Hope this helps.

Paulus Jas:

hi AJ,

when we met before I told you I heard alarmbells ringing. The Alaska RR is so well known I would love to see it back in your plan. Your wife presented you a ferry and you want to keep your marriage so I'll tell what I was looking for.

A nice harbour (Whittier) scene with on the background one of these big cruiseboats, dwarfing the little trains waiting for passengers. A single track line going into a tunnel, shared with Fords, Chevies and trucks. Then over a single track line, up to a junction with the line to Seward along beautifull scenery, before going up North through unspoiled nature.

What I see is a double track generic plan with no end or begin, packed with action. I do not mean to say you have a bad plan, I just do not see Alaska.

You have to fill me in on this one: I asume your wife's present was a barge, as on sir Madoq's design for Whittier. Must it in reality be one of those big ocean going vessels?

Paul

Having lived 6 memorable years in Alaska (and pining for more), I share Paul's concerns.  I don't see the Alaskan RR or Alaska in your plans or planning.  I don't know the reason - perhaps lack of familiarity.

Both barges and container ships are used in supplying Alaskan ports in the modern era.  As the clock is turned back, barges and container ships disappear, with cargo ships of various sizes and types taking their place.  Fishing has been a staple Alaska occupation since the beginning of time, with dedicated boats taking over in many areas just as the railroads were arriving (about 1900).  Every port town had some kind of fishing fleet and fish processing plants until the factory ships took over in the 1990s.

Matunuska Valley (Palmer is the main town of the area) is the center of Alaskan agriculture.  It was settled in the 1930s as a rescue effort for failing farmers of the Northern Plains states during the Depression.  The Alaskan RR has an important branch to Palmer to service the area.   It still runs an occasional passenger train to Palmer for special events, and brings out ballast and gravel from the branch.  Although there probably was never a grain elevator (grain is/was not the main crop), a Palmer branch with an elevator is not totally implausible.

As you alluded to, mining is huge.  Gold, silver, lead, copper mines are still active in Alaska.  Oil wells were/are pretty much limited to North Slope and Cook Inlet.  Anchorage has a refinery, so there is some tank car traffic on the Alaskan, but ore predominates.  Lumber is mostly limited to Southeast where railroads are fairly impractical, and barges and log rafts dominate.

Alaskan passenger traffic requires mountain scenery - that's what the railroad has passenger trains for since the paved road system was built in the '70s.  Tourism is needed to support the passenger trains - the year-round population is too small for more than a few cars between major towns.  Keep in mind, even today, Fairbanks at the second biggest city is only 80K folks.  Seward is around 5K as is Palmer, and Whittier is less than 2K.

The requirements for modeling Alaska passenger traffic are going to conflict with modeling freight patterns if using HO in a not-that-big space.  The passenger traffic needs staging and mountain scenery areas, and possibly serving and marshalling yards.  Freight needs harbor, mine, and some ore reduction scenes.  Team tracks and a fuel oil distribution spur in a small town or two (Talkeetna, Wasilla, Nenana, Healy are examples) lend to the Alaska atmoshpere.  Era is going to be a big factor in what logically fits and doesn't.

just my thoughts and experiences

Fred W

 Thanks for your thoughts, Fred! As mentioned, I've only been to Alaska a small handful of times, and limited my travels to mostly between Anchorage and Wasilla (where my wife's grandparents homesteaded, and where her grandmother still lives). And even then, that was mostly 8 years ago while courting my dear wife. My information is mostly gleaned from talking with my father-in-law, who was born and raised in Wasilla, and who only left the area recently, after retiring, to be near his daughters who had moved to the lower 48. I've also been using a 4th grade level Alaska history book that my mother-in-law lent me that she taught out of during her tenure teaching at Snowshoe Elementary in Wasilla.

There is some mental vision for many of the things you describe, which don't necessarily translate well. I do recognize I'm going to be using a lot of selective compression, as well as quite a bit of modeler's license. My goal isn't to be 100% prototypical, but to hopefully "give the feeling of" - if that makes sense.

Based on your experiences, what specific suggestions would you make to an Alaska-wannabe such as myself?

As I said in the previous post, era is really key to selecting elements. 

Whittier (and the tunnel) was built in WW2 to provide a port with more protection from surface or submarine attack than Seward or Anchorage (both of which require ship transit by the tip of the Kenai Peninsula).  The AlCan Highway was built during WW2 for the same reason.

Girdwood is an interesting point where the Whittier branch ties to the Seward-Anchorage main.  Again, not a lot of track, but worthwhile exploring on Google Earth or similar.

All of the Alaska (and Yukon Territory) railroads were originally built to get ore from the mines to ships (on river or ocean), and people and supplies from the ships to the mines.  The original portions of the Alaskan RR up near Fairbanks, WP&Y, the copper hauling rr near Cordova, Klondike Mining Railway, etc, all were built on this model. 

In the more modern era, tourist passenger trains are a signature feature.  Before the bigtime tourist era, real flag stops were common.  Literally, hikers and local residents would flag a passenger train to stop for pickup and drop-off along the main right-of-way.

Between the port and destination, single track is the norm.  A town like Talkeetna would have a passing siding and a few spurs.  Every Alaska town needs a fuel (oil, coal, or wood depending on era) distribution point - fuel has to come in by barge or railway or truck.  A team track with freight house would probably suffice for most other supplies.

Every port has to have a means to transfer cargo from rail cars to ships - means again depends on era.  Every ocean port/town also had a fish cannery and a fishing fleet.  These towns - until west of Kodiak - would have a Pacific NW appearance (check out pictures of Seward and Skagway for rail-served towns) with conifers everywhere - except where cut down for fuel and mine shoring.

Rivers in Alaska very seldom have the tree-lined, stable, bucolic river banks one thinks of in the Eastern US.  Wide, shallow, gravel and rock beds dominate the river scenes and drainages.  Any trees are well back from the flood stage, which is 3 times as wide as normal flows.  Your tag says Colorado - think of the scree fields in the mountains above the tree line; that's what river beds and banks in Alaska tend to look like.

Perhaps the best way short of personally visiting to research and get a feel is to look at photos of towns and railroads in books and/or on line.

Which scenes is totally your decision and your interests.  With your ties to Wasilla, that might be a key scene to include.  Add the Palmer Branch and junction, and perhaps the main as far as Talkeetna, with further north and Anchorage represented in staging.  Just a suggestion.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

 hi AJM

Fred made me even more curious. I was trying out Google Earth but zooming in enough to get a picture of the tracks was impossible. The image became blurred, wheather conditions?

As far as I could follow the line from Seward, scenery was dwarfing, really dwarfing,  the trains and I saw a single track along the waterline sometimes competing with a road for the narrow space available. 

According to the Whittier webside you could model all the 128 residents one by one. The yard ain't that small, with a very long team track with plenty space for the big fork-lift-trucks. I understand the concept of modern-sea-going barges now; nice video. Thought it was the pier first. When looking good I could see a old fashioned apron in Whittier. Were railroad cars being ferried as well? Are there any pictures of this operation or were commodities being translaoded?

Can a good map be found where I can get an idea about the tracks around Seward, Anchorage, Girdwood, Wasilla and Palmer? Wasilla and Palmer seem to be pretty close to Anchorage, can be the scale of the map fooling me. (how do you pronounce Talkeetna?  Talkie  -  etna  or?)

The idea of two different railroads on two different levels is appealing to me. I second you Fred; the era is an all important design element here.

BTW the OP is or was? not so much into going prototypecaly. Please say so if you are not that much interested in following the prototype. With those family ties and those wonderful scenery it would be very hard to me to ignore the Alaska RR.

Waiting to see your new plans

keep having fun

Paul 

Paulus Jas:

The image became blurred, wheather conditions?

Depending on which satellite(s) Google Earth uses, the resolution may be not as high at Alaska latitudes.  Many satellite orbits don't go past about 50deg North.

As far as I could follow the line from Seward, scenery was dwarfing, really dwarfing,  the trains and I saw a single track along the waterline sometimes competing with a road for the narrow space available.

To me, the drive from Anchorage south through Turnagin Arm to Seward or Nikiski is one of the most beautiful in the world.  Although I've never taken the train along that route, I'm sure the views are even better by rail.  Yes, Alaska scenery dwarfs almost anything.  Seward is in fact a crowded harbor - there's very little flat land there.

Wasilla and Palmer seem to be pretty close to Anchorage, can be the scale of the map fooling me. (how do you pronounce Talkeetna?  Talkie  -  etna  or?)

Tall keet na .  Both Wasilla and Palmer are about 70 miles by road or rail from Anchorage proper, IIRC.

 Fred W