Layouts and layout building

I finally got my train room cleaned up, my old benchwork section back standing, and built two more sections. So now I'm itching to get moving again. I was planning on using Fast Tracks turnouts, and drew my plan based on #5's (and I have the fixtures). But I am sorely tempted to just buy Atlas #4's (which are actually 4 1/2) and just use those. I used Atlas 4's and 6's in my last layout and had zero issues - so reliability really isn't my concern. The only thing I had an issue with was the Code 83 #4's have a 'wiggle' in the straight leg - like they don't fit the molds properly. The COde 100 ones don't have this, but I really don't want to use Code 100. Never caused a problem even with larger locos than I will be running (ran 4-8-4 steamers and GG1 electrics over the old layout - nothing larger than a 4 axle diesel this layout).

 So - be patient and start working on Fast Tracks turnouts (I've only made 1 1/2 so far, the 1/2 was one I was just testing things and never intended to complete, the 1 completed one, while it works and is reliable in testing, is rather ugly, so I need more practice before I turn out acceptable ones), I figure a month or two before I have enough to start some uninterrupted construction, maybe more as I will need to order more Quiksticks ties, I only have enough for 5 turnouts on hand. Or give in to the impatience, buy some Atlas, and get the track down and start running trains?

                                                   --Randy

I've never understood the business of building handlaid turnouts, unless it is the challenge.  The ones I've seen have been ugly and unreliable.  Maybe they have not been typical.  With the variety of commercial turnouts available, I'll use my time building items that are not available.

 Randy

I've taken a slightly different approach.  Knowing that I haven't got patience to go without running any trains for as long as it will take me to hand lay all my track (my preferred option), I bought just enough Atlas track to get me started with some simple train running - 4 turnouts for 2 spurs and a passing siding with an oval on 4x6 ft.  For the narrow gauge, there's a single Shinohara turnout plus a few lengths of flex - I may break down and buy 2-3 more Shinohara turnouts.  This gives me my test track and layout for my locomotive and structure work while I plan and start the "final" layout.  The handlaid track may replace the prefab first on the test layout, or it might go directly to the primary layout.  In any case, I'm having fun - but I do intend to end up with handlaid track in code 70, 55, and 40.  I've handlaid code 70 track on previous layouts so I know what I'm doing and where I'm heading.

Long story to say - buy and lay just enough Atlas to satisfy the train running urge while you get your Fast Tracks learning curve accomplished.  Know that you will replace those "curved" #4s with your own special turnouts down the road, and don't worry about imperfections that don't affect trains staying on the track.

Another possibility:  the Shinohara turnouts are but $2 more each than the Atlas at my LHS (full retail).

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

ham99:

I've never understood the business of building handlaid turnouts, unless it is the challenge.  The ones I've seen have been ugly and unreliable.  Maybe they have not been typical.  With the variety of commercial turnouts available, I'll use my time building items that are not available.

My experience has been just the opposite.  Despite my not having any discernible skills in fine metal or wood work, even my very first handlaid turnout was far better looking and far more reliable than anything available commercially at the time.  And even though commercial turnouts have improved, they still fall short in both looks and reliability of what I am capable of producing with my limited skill and talent.  The final argument against commercial turnouts is the limited configurations available.  With handlaid, I can and do have continuous curves through my turnouts when I choose, use whatever frog # suits the situation, and can even overlap the turnouts if need be - all with a much smoother ride and finer appearance than any commercial turnout I have seen.  The geometry issue is particularly important to me with my small layouts - it may not matter so much when space is not so critical.

OTOH, if you are not so fussy about how realistic looking your track is, and can live with available commercial turnout configurations and reliability, there is no real reason to build your own other than pride and cost.  Handlaid track should be especially avoided if you lack the patience or prefer to devote your modeling time to other aspects of the hobby.

just my experiences

Fred W 

Any relationship between Atlas turnouts and the real things is purely coincidental, as far as realism is concerned.  I won't let any Atlas turnout appear on my layout.

Mark

In my opinion, Fred has the right approach.  If you are itching to get some powered rail time, use some available and borrowed stuff to do a proof of concept and beyond for the next three months until you are turning out turnouts (oh, come on...you knew that was coming...) at the rate of one an evening.  Think long term and how they promise to be so smooth and good looking once set in place and weathered up.  If you are reasonably committed to producing a nicely scenicked layout, you will paint up the rails and ties, ballast most of the turnout, and maybe even add some details from suppliers to make them stand out in images.

Finally, make some so that you can make them all.  At some point you just know you can build any turnout you need.  Atlas has not found a way to do that yet.

-Crandell

selector:

 At some point you just know you can build any turnout you need.  Atlas has found a way to do that yet.

I don't comprehend.  Crandell, please explain so this simpleton might understand.

Mark

Howdy, Randy,

Back about 5 years ago, just as soon as I had an L-girder table with joists installed, I flopped some box cardboard on the joists and assembled some cheap train set track (including snap switches) on it.  That became the construction tramway on which I ran a teakettle tank loco and three gons loaded with screws, track nails and rail joiners.

As soon as I had laid a few meters of permanent track, the work train was switched onto it and the train set track went back into the junk box.

I've also been known to quickly slap down some flex track, then come back later to build the turnout that the plan said should be there.

All of my permanent turnouts are hand laid, and I challenge Atlas or anybody to show me a commercial product that's more precisely gauged or more dependable in operation.  Thanks to some very short pickup wheelbase units, dead frogs are a non-starter for me.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Chuck,

I'm "on board."

Mark

Hi from Belgium,

I use since three years the Fastrack system in Nscale and beleive me they are tiny turnouts out there!

In the beginning I just build one by one to follow my need of turnout for my Maclau River RR. That was the bad way.

The results where just ok, they run fine but I had no experiences and the finish was ugly.

I was searching and looking after the pieces, not sure in my soldering, and had no method because it was not, as I can say, a dayly work; just one shot here. At this moment I have no background, and the construction of handlaid turnouts, even in a jig, is asking background

Because a move come in 2010, I plan a big new line in Appalachian which need a lot of turnouts anyway.

So a few months ago I began to mass produced turnout, n°6, n°8 and n°8 curved.

I organize my working session in two phases, first cut all the rail pieces and fill them to a ready state to be put in the Fastrack Jig, second constructing all the turnouts one after one. Here comes in a few hours the background. If the first were build in an around one hour work, the last where build in 35 minutes.

I didn't search time performance anyway, but because of this organisation I was able to find the good way to use the jig and build the turnouts. Solder pieces of track come the same way, because I do a repetitive work, it's now an easy task.

The results where great and as the pictures below show, these batch of 27 turnouts was build during my hollydays under the sun in the garden.It was an around 5 days work from the lenght of ME code55 track to  ready to run turnouts.

These turnouts are far the best I have found looking at their rolling qualities and are DCC ready.

Now I have an around 55 turnouts ready to lay for the expansion of my Maclau River in Nscale

One good learning for buiding them is to view and review the CD Fastrack join with the jig.

Good luck.

Marc

For what little it's worth, I'd have to echo the majority of comments so far. Using the commercial turnouts for the "now" is a grand idea, but I wouldn't give up that easy on the Fast Tracks. After the second one, I started having fun assembling them, and it didn't become work at all.

As mentioned, the videos are well worth watching - especially the soldering one - if you haven't.  I did find for an attractive turnout, you do need the right solder (.015), and the right (powerful enough) soldering gun and tip. 

Making my own turnouts has been very liberating - I can approach any track problem, or challenge now without fear, which to me is the first step in getting to reliable running.

Some folks don't have the time or patience to hand lay, but for those that might, I'd recommend it 100%.

I've noticed the "curve" on the straight leg as well. I need to use those 4-1/2s for space reasons, so I'm going to try to spike the curve out of them. If you try, you can force them straight by hand. Hope it works.

While I think I probably have the ability, the thought of hand making and hand spiking turnouts sends shivers up and down my spine.

The only real issues I've had with Atlas c83 have been frogs too high on #6 super switch, which I managed to draw file down to the correct height, and got a better shine on the rail to boot, and some custom line and snap switches that lose the electrical connection between the diverging route rail and the corresponding straight rail on the frog side. Those get jumpers, or an extra set of feeders on that side.

I do have some Walthers/Shinohara switches- some #5, #6, and a couple double slips and crossovers, but in my neck of the woods and on ebay I can get Atlas for about 1/2 the price, or less of Walthers on a fairly regular basis.

I guess I'm not too concerned that my trackwork doesn't have the "fine detail" many people are into lately, but it always bothered me to see hand laid track that only has spikes (and very obvious and large ones) on evey fourth ot fifth tie. I think that kills any added detail anywhere else.

 I started building this layout with full intentions of using nothing but Micro Engineering weathered flex track and hand laid turnouts and in some spots Walther/Shinohara . Then reality set in. I had accumulated what I thought was a pretty good amount of material to at least get me started on the new construction but after putting down what I had and the present economic situation being what it is I had to make a choice.do I stop working on the layout and accumulate the things I really wanted or do I switch to plan B and keep moving forward. I opted for plan B. I used Micro Engineering flex in most of the areas where the track work was highly visible but on some elevated sections and in yards and staging I chose Atlas code 83 and Atlas custom line turnouts. I came across the custom line turnouts completely by accident when I stopped in an LHS to pick up something for my friends son's slot car and found that this shop was discontinuing their model railroad line. They were selling Atlas custom line turnouts for $4.00/ea. A deal I couldn't pass up. I tried to sell most if not all of them on line but didn't get many offers so I decided to use them "for now" When ever I place a turnout I make it so it can be removed without much effort. I only glue it down partially with 50/50 white glue and water before ballasting and then when ballasting along with a few track spikes they hold just fine. So then like many of you my inner rivet counter comes out and says now that doesn't look good enough so I add head blocks then paint and weather them add some joint bars, switch stands and by the time they are buried in ballast they look pretty darned good. Not 100% but they will do for now.

I have plenty of Micro engineering turnouts in place as well as a few Central Valley one's as well. Will I change them out, eventually but for now they are acceptable and things are moving forward.

It all comes down to economics how deep are your pockets? If you can afford to do things the way you would ultimately  like right from the get go then go for it. Some may say your even saving money by doing so and then others will say for every plan you always need a back up. I have found the one thing that is that is hard to do in this hobby is apply patients. We have bench work up and immediately want to start laying track and before you know it you have a few structures here and there and then this and then that. If you have the patients to stick to your plan and not deviate from it kudos to you.

1948PRR:

I guess I'm not too concerned that my track work doesn't have the "fine detail" many people are into lately, but it always bothered me to see hand laid track that only has spikes (and very obvious and large ones) on evey fourth ot fifth tie. I think that kills any added detail anywhere else.

1948PRR,

I may be mistaken, but I didn't think that track details were the reasons folks hand lay their track (maybe a few decades ago, but not necessarily today). The lack of tie plates, for instance, is enough of a distraction for people interested in that; overall, the ME flex track actually has better overall appearance.

The one exception to that is the fact that there is some natural variation in tie placement.

Nor, as has been pointed out, is hand laying really any cheaper.You have some significant material costs, tool costs, and more importantly for most folks, a significant time cost. Bulk packs of ME rail run between $40-$50 dollars depending on code, and that's just for 99 feet (the equivalent of 15 pieces of 3 foot flex). Than add ties, stain, etc.

But even with the Fast Tracks jig system, ultimately you do reach a point where the costs drop well below retail, but it takes a few turnouts to do so (15 seems to be about the average break even point for the jigs and tools, and I'm including the point forms, soldering iron, etc) as compared with non-atlas turnout. Once that initial cost is amortized, well the cost drops dramatically to just a few dollars in materials per turnout. Note that if you forgo the jig system, which you can certainly do, the amortization of your basic tools will happen much quicker.

So why hand lay, if it's not for detail or cost?  Simple. It's fun. The fact that turnouts work better and smoother is just icing on the cake. I for one found it rewarding to hand lay track, despite the time it took (on average an hour for every meter). There is a sense of satisfaction in seeing the track work that you've put down progress that can't be explained.

As far as appearance, I don't think it looks too bad. Here's a section of my test section (chainsaw) layout.

Yeah, there are spike heads every 5 ties in there, somewhere. Would flex look worse? Not at all. I just like the idea I put every tie and rail down.

Randy, use whatever you're happy with, but I would recommend at least giving it a shot, if even in only a small section of your layout.

I've never laid an inch of handlaid rail.

And I never will.

Atlas turnouts look fine to me. I have dozens on my layout and only have one problem one which is due to be replaced soon. I have a few Walthers/Shinora #8s because Atlas hadn't come out with their #8s when I started my layout and I have a few curved turnouts of the same make. Other than that, the rest are Atlas.

With the variety of commercial turnouts available, I see no need to handlay one. It's much easier to adjust the track plan to fit a commercial turnout than to custom build one to fit an exact space.