Prototype information for the modeler

DSO17:

Roundhouse w/o turntable - Wilmington DE had an old rectangular two stall enginehouse attached to a newer four or five stall roundhouse. All the stalls were accessed by switches. there was a turntable on a separate lead on the other side of Beech Street.

The Reading/Philadelphia & Reading/Wilmington & Northern facility at Beech St. has an interesting history.

The original turntable and "roundhouse" was oriented at right angles to the main track and the roudnhouse was actually rectangular.  Then a new roundhouse was built roughly parallel to the main track.  It had a turntable in the normal position.  The original turntable was removed and the old roundhouse became a car shop.  A rectangular car shop was added to the roundhouse and the original roundhouse was retired.  When the turntable was replaced with a bigger one, it was moved to its own lead because Beech St crossed the turntable leads too close to the turntable to allow it to be enlarged.

 So the final arrangement was a 2 stall rectangular car shop, a 3 stall roundhouse (it actually had five stalls, but two of them were always used as a machine shop) with a turntable separate from the roundhouse.

 Here is a link to plans and a history of the last roundhouse.  Although the HABS-HAER doesn't discuss the earlier roundhouse and turntable, it clearly shows on early Sanborn maps.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?hh:1:./temp/~ammem_t9Tx::

The tracks that parallel Oak St were the leads to the orignal roundhouse.

Phx Az circa 2009.

I've seen a few pics of a roundhouse still being used by a RR but with no turntable. Usually it resulted from the railroad going all-diesel, and deciding to fill in the turntable pit and replace it with turnouts to the stalls. However I do seem to recall one or two situations where a railroad built a roundhouse and had turnouts from the start.  As you'd expect in either situation they're usually small 3-4-5 stall roundhouses; bigger than that the switch angles wouldn't work out right.

 Some railroads building out west around the 1870s would put in a hand powered turntable if the loco had to go a distance for more supplies while the railroad was being built. A have some photos of those.

One photo I have seen is a CW railroad put a turntable alongside a two stall engine house. The TT did not feed the engine house but this was wartime and only temporary.

One railroad put a hand powered turntable in a covered circular building on the side of a mountain to turn the loco so it could continue up the side of the mountain. For some reason, no switch back. They had to put any cars on the TT also. RMC had an article with period photos some years ago. The building was built over the TT to protect it from snow.The remants of the TT are pretty much coverd by trees and brush.

In that era, hand powerd simple balance TT's were not to difficult t build.

Rich

 I love to go offroading around British Columbia to explore old rail lines CPR/Kettle Valley and PGE/BCR and CN. I am surprised at the number of old turntables or remnants thereof that I have come across.

  I had always assumed that these were costly items for the railroads to install but maybe not. The one question I still have is, what determined weather it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment.

                                                                        Brent

An "armstrong" manual turntable like you might find at the end of a branch line to turn a 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 wouldn't be all that expensive I'd think. It really was nothing more than a wood (or steel) bridge built on a pivot to rotate in the middle. You didn't have to have a concrete pit lining or anything fancy like that.

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/turntables/4-4-0_46turntableperhapsWashingtonStJamaica.jpg

 The NCNG had a turntable at Colfax California to turn the locomotives but no round house was ever built there.   There are probably numberous examples of this on smaller branches where engine houses were not built.

CZ

Corkscrew Gulch turntable. This turntable did not last very long. It was an Armstrong type built essentially in the middle of nowhere. Below is the history. It could handle a 2-8-0 at that time which were not very big compared to some years later. Rolling stock was handled by this turntable much of the time requiring two locomotives. There was a lot of money in silver mining at that time and labor was very cheap. The grade was around 5 percent. In a search. Some articles mention a two truck shay the road had as a 0-4-4-0T. I found that quite interesting.

http://www.narrowgauge.org/ncmap/excur2_silverton_railroad_history.html

Rich

BATMAN:

 The one question I still have is, what determined whether it was a pit design or an at grade turntable? I have come across both in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it was the size of loco's it would be turning or the amount of snow the area would get, or could have just been used for MOW equipment.

 

                                                                        Brent

Several factors come into play.  It will depend on how many tracks will lead off the table.There needs to be some form of pit wall at each track, so if there are quite a few tracks the pit is generally completely enclosed.  But if there are only a couple of tracks each side, the pit may be left open around the rest of the circumference.

Topography also factors in.  If the track lead is above the surrounding ground elevation, all that is required is an embankment for each of the few tracks, and with luck the "pit" area will be self draining.  As you surmised, in areas of heavy snowfall it can be advantageous to have the pit partially open so mechanical equipment can get in to clear the snow out. Otherwise it is a lot of manual labour, or the use of steam to melt the snow.

John

In the Great Lakes area, where logging was generally done in the winter, it wasn't unheard of for logging railroads to have a turntable that covered the pit - kind of like the Atlas HO turntable I guess.

None inspired more fear then the 90ft. NWP armstrong example that was built right up against a sheer drop involving several hundred feet to the river below!  To add to the thrill effect, the turntable spur dropped down a short, steep grade from the mainline. Suffice to say, proper engine balance on this table was of upmost importance among the crew, probally as equally important as the ability to stop in time! Space and terrain precluded any type of structure, thus it was likely used to turn occasional helper movements.

Dave

CAZEPHYR:

 The NCNG had a turntable at Colfax California to turn the locomotives but no round house was ever built there.   There are probably numberous examples of this on smaller branches where engine houses were not built.

CZ

CZ: 

Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City.  Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years).   Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax).  My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL!    I made a really neat "Play Fort".   The turntable in Grass Valley was built out on an 'abutment' overlooking the town from the terminal there, which ran above the town on a side-hill curve.  I think you had to be REALLY careful spotting the locomotives. 

Another example was Siskiyou Summit on the SP's secondary route between Black Butte and Eugene, OR.  A turntable with no roundhouse smack in the middle of a forested mountain summit to turn helpers coming up from either Ashland (west) or Dunsmuir (east).    The helpers were usually sent back light to either terminal, where there were both turntables and roundhouses.    

At Colfax, on the SP Donner Pass route, there was a seven-stall engine house for helper locomotives to assist freights east up the 'Hill' to Norden, but no turntable.  Colfax had a wye track for turning the helpers (usually 2-8-0's) that were cut in ahead of the AC Cab-forward's for the steepest part of the grade through Blue Canyon.  There was a 'balloon' track at Emigrant Gap, some miles further up where the grade eased and the helpers could be turned around to run back to Colfax, or they continued up to the summit at Norden, where there was a covered turntable (no roundhouse) in the snowshed complex to be turned and sent back down the mountain. 

Though not a 'turntable', SP also had a wye track near Cascade Summit on their 'Natron Cutoff" (the primary Portland/Oakland main line)  for turning helpers coming 'west' (south) from Eugene.  The tail end of the wye was in a tunnel. 

Tom

twhite:

Same thing on the NCNG at their other two terminals--Grass Valley and Nevada City.  Turntables but no roundhouses (though there was an engine shed in Grass Valley for some years).   Both were of the 'Armstrong' variety, as was the turntable at Oilville (Colfax).  My buddies and I used to play in the Nevada City turntable pit when we were kids, before it was filled in as a 'hazard', LOL!  

Tom, as I recall, Gerald Best's book shows a single-stall enginehouse at Nevada City and a two-stall enginehouse at Grass Valley which were directly served by their respective turntables althrough the enginehouses were rectangular rather than "round" (e.g. radial).

Mark

At one time, the cities of Barre and Montpelier, VT were connected by 2 different railroads. One of them was the Montpelier and Wells River Railroad. The other was the Barre and Montpelier Branch of the Central Vermont.

The CV Station still stands in Barre. The passenger tracks were the eastern most tracks of the Branch line. Just past the Depot, the 2 tracks ended at a turntable. It was the end of the line. There was no roundhouse.

The turntable is long gone. Now a lone GP9R, number 804 lettered for the Green Mountain RR rules the branch (ex GMRC 1851, ex NS 2000). It is run by the Washington County Railroad (WACR). It lives in the engine house in Barre.

Gil

Jacktal:

I'm presently designing my layout and am faced with a hard choice.As much as I'd like a roundhouse/turntable combo on the layout,the size of the whole set makes it quite impossible to fit where I'd like it to be.But if I drop the RH,the TT would nicely fit in a corner without eating up too much landscape and ruining my trackplan.Could I have a lonely TT as an "end of line" device with it possibly linked to a yard and perhaps having a track or two leading to a less space eating two stall rectangular building and still be prototypical? 

Some branch lines lack turntables as did some short lines..The locomotive would return to the yard tender first.The coming of the diesel doomed  turntables and old fashion roundhouses.Some railroads used a single stall engine house on branch lines or in some cases there wasn't any engine house-just a shanty for the locomotive hostler.All he did was keep the fire banked in order to keep minimum steam pressure up.

Steam railroading isn't as cut and dry as many been lead to believe..