General Discussion

NKP guy:

You are entirely right about passenger service being "a minute part of it."  That is exactly my point.  Don't sweat the small stuff when we're talking about the national debt

I agree that growing the economy is the best way to pay down the debt, but I don’t see how deficit spending on HSR is going grow the economy.  But to your point about HSR being chump change compared to the national debt.  I am not sure what minimalist number you are referring to, but we now have $8-billion on the table. 

Most HSR advocates won’t be satisfied with anything less than a national system of lines and trains connecting most major cities.  $8-billion is not going to even pay for the meetings that will be necessary to build that national system.  The Hiawatha LRT in Minneapolis ran about $3/4-billion, and that system is a drop in the bucket compared to a national system of HSR.  So don’t see how you can characterize the price tag for HSR as being inconsequential.

NKP

As a famous Illinois politician once said "A billion here, a billion there.  After a while it adds up to real money."

Mac

henry6:

Participation here is a perk of subscribing to the magazines.  His subscription has evidently not run out and he is just saying that he does not plan to renew.  Until the delivery of his final issue he is free to post.

Fortunately for all of you fine folks I have't cancelled ALL of the subscriptions I had with Kalmbach - just the one that was screaming about how we need more taxes to have a really fancy high speed rail network that will do nothing other than give some people on this forum more things to talk mindlessly about. 

I am glad to see that the moderators here have now taken censorship to an entirely new level and censored out words that aren't even curse words.  Apparently, the use of colorful but curse free language to describe the idiocy (can I use that one?) here is just too much for some.

 In any case, don't worry.  As long as Kalmbach keeps Tom Murray and Jim Wrinn from writing their 'tax us for the trains' garbage out of Model Railroader I'll do just fine.  To everyone's delight I will continue to offer my two cents for the immediate future.  

Cheers.

I take it you don't subscribe to any airline magazines.  Or highway construction magazines.  Probably not contractor magazines either.  Certainly you have your model magazine deliverd by UPS and not by the government owned and operated US Postal Service.  Drink water from the tap or bottled water from the store?   Do you even drive a car?

solzrules:

Fortunately for all of you fine folks I have't cancelled ALL of the subscriptions I had with Kalmbach - just the one that was screaming about how we need more taxes to have a really fancy high speed rail network that will do nothing other than give some people on this forum more things to talk mindlessly about. 

I am glad to see that the moderators here have now taken censorship to an entirely new level and censored out words that aren't even curse words.  Apparently, the use of colorful but curse free language to describe the idiocy (can I use that one?) here is just too much for some.

 In any case, don't worry.  As long as Kalmbach keeps Tom Murray and Jim Wrinn from writing their 'tax us for the trains' garbage out of Model Railroader I'll do just fine.  To everyone's delight I will continue to offer my two cents for the immediate future.  

Cheers.

 

Words get auto censored in the program, not because they are dirty or curses, but rather because people with aggressive personality disorders use them to intentionally offend or insult people.

Since this thread has degenerated into a childish name calling fest it will probably soon be locked.

Too bad, there are a lot of interesting points being made in the debate.

I find one of the arguments being made by some of the posters here rather odd: some seem to be trying to imply that TRAINS did not advocate for public investment in Amtrak and commuter rail until Mr. Wrinn's becoming editor.  I have read trains consistently since the late 70's/early 80's and can only recall a few contributors who were contrarians on that subject (John Kneilling being perhaps the prime example)...

solzrules:

...I am glad to see that the moderators here have now taken censorship to an entirely new level and censored out words that aren't even curse words.  Apparently, the use of colorful but curse free language to describe the idiocy (can I use that one?) here is just too much for some...

Your choices of words are sometimes going to fall in a grey area where some of the readership here find the term sufficiently ambiguous or offensive to submit an objection. 

For the record, the term you used, starting with a "k" and ending with "...olisher" is not offensive to me, personally, since I think I took it as I you claim you intended...merely as a pejorative and not as an indication of sexual orientation.  I would have used the term 'sycophant', but that's just me.  Yet, if people at various points in the country complain because your words have a more objectionable connotation locally, it is a small thing to alter what you wrote to make it more acceptable.  After all, your first intent is to get some sort of a point across, no?  The alternative was to delete your remarks entirely, sans alteration.

Which would you prefer?  I'll keep it in mind for the next time.

-Crandell

NKP guy:

  Does America compete in the 21st century or quit the race because it costs money to make up for the lost time of the last 40 or 50 years?  I'm glad to pay more taxes to keep my country competitive and strong.  

I don't even think you would need to go with MORE taxes as much as TARGETTED. Or rather, prioritized.

This argument seems to be more centered on what type of a vision do you have for your country? I'd love to see a country centered on its possibilities or potentials than the ever popular cry---But it Costs $$$ !!! WAAAH!!  Waiting for the dollar bill to suddenly show up and LEAD the way is not going to work here.

This is what our collective mindset has given us----we have become afraid to spend any kind of money on doing what would give us what our collective forefathers have worked so hard on---they had the vision------we have the billfold

Maybe a way looking at this is to see all of us as a type of investor---why do we not invest in our own countries? In our local innovators? Local businesses? GROW our markets? MMM?

garr:

Get the country's finances in order, then talk national high speed rail. Infrastructure is important, but our elected officials need to have the discipline to say no to pet projects that take the money away from needed ones.

Couple of questions---get the countries finances in order? How? I got into a discussion on this kind of thing awhile back and came up with an interesting issue---in order to get out of a pickle one had to do something radical---this could take one of several routes---one was to just stop paying for anything and putting all that $$$ into the debt. Problem---social issues and what all else

The other soluton would be to do the second part of what you said here----that may be a hard row to hoe but the alternative is not a pleasent one---

The second question ties in with the first in that one has to find exactly WHICH projects are needed and WHICH projects are pet projects and ---WHO decides this? I tend to favour a detached observor from Mars---perhaps 

solzrules:

  The US government has no money, no surplus, no budget gimmick, that can produce the amount of money this will require.  Raising taxes when the unemployment rate is at 10% in an economy that gets most of its strength from consumer spending takes money away from the consumer and puts it in the pocket of government.  People can't afford this anymore.

Since the government has no money, no surplus---one could argue here that there is no income either as it all has to satisfy a humungous debt---and all else then how does one even get the day to day stuff done? Here is where these rhetorical responses trip us up ---NO money? Then explain all the government duties still being accomplished--you still have a military force do you not? they are still being paid? Or is it done through pretend money? Like scrip?

As for the consumer spending? When they do not have the cash themselves? Don't forget there is a huge consumer debt load sitting over them too. We have Ford now saying that a local plant--Ford Talbotville will be closing---1,500 people out there in a year---so much for taxpayers there---so much for a consumer market---can't buy too many iPods here can you? If the consumer really started to choke up on the debt market (some call it credit but there we go) the way the banks recently did there would be even more of an issue here----

I think we need to think other than the usual way here---do we wait until that magic time when the money will be around so things can be done then?

blownout cylinder:

Couple of questions---get the countries finances in order? How? ....one was to just stop paying for anything and putting all that $$$ into the debt. Problem---social issues and what all else

The other soluton would be to do the second part of what you said here----that may be a hard row to hoe but the alternative is not a pleasent one---

The second question ties in with the first in that one has to find exactly WHICH projects are needed and WHICH projects are pet projects and ---WHO decides this? I tend to favour a detached observor from Mars---perhaps 

How? As I stated in one of the earlier posts on this thread, maybe a change in voter psychology to elect, i.e. value, candidates for what they DON'T spend. Yeah right!

I do not know the financial situation north of the border, but the USA has reached the point where only 55% of the workforce pays federal taxes. This puts us close to the tail wagging the dog scenario--the ones who don't pay taxes dictating, via the ballot box, how our taxes are spent.

The USA has an "advertised" national debt of $10+ trillion, however if you throw in the unfunded programs such as the proverbial social security trust fund(if found, it would be a pile of IOU notes, not cash) the true national debt is $60+ trillion plus. How is this able to happen? By foreign countries buying our treasury notes. So far China, Germany, and Japan have been large purchasers. But what happens if they decide not to buy? What country(ies) will step up to replace them? Not too many choices out there.

This sets the American dollar up for devaluing. Thus inflation.

As far as your second question, the President could easily have this authority if the line item veto was allowed.  However this is not allowed on a national level yet most, if not all, of our 50 states give their governor this power.

Jay

BTW, a detached observer from Pluto might be more appropriate since our politicians are so Goofy (I would have said Uranus but someone could take that personally)

garr:

How? As I stated in one of the earlier posts on this thread, maybe a change in voter psychology to elect, i.e. value, candidates for what they DON'T spend. Yeah right!

That may work---key being "May" I'd extend that psychology a bit further though. At this point not only is government debt important but we all are in the same bucket in terms of consumer debt as well. Being something of a miserly cuss at times, I've suggested to some that one could indenture all of us into a type of slavery and dump all the money that would have been paid out to the debt instead. HOWEVER, that being said, it ain't gonna happen because----you already know what would happen with the money----in the hands of a bureaucracy? My thing now is to ask ---"how is it that we ccan forgive all kinds of debt everywhere else but here? Kinda odd don't you think?

I've also been known to ask really odd questions---like---whence money? Where did the idea: Money come from? Out of a cocked hat? Did it fall--unbidden--from the sky? I say this---it was an idea that stemmed from man--from humans. The fact that we can influence the value--as in a herd mentality--does indicate to me that there is something to the arguement that a market comprises a herd. And that we as humans have left our brains elsewhere-----

garr:

The USA has an "advertised" national debt of $10+ trillion, however if you throw in the unfunded programs such as the proverbial social security trust fund(if found, it would be a pile of IOU notes, not cash) the true national debt is $60+ trillion plus. How is this able to happen? By foreign countries buying our treasury notes. So far China, Germany, and Japan have been large purchasers. But what happens if they decide not to buy? What country(ies) will step up to replace them? Not too many choices out there.

Does that total include total consumer debt? If not then ---- Also---who gets the payments on that debt?

garr:

BTW, a detached observer from Pluto might be more appropriate since our politicians are so Goofy (I would have said Uranus but someone could take that personally)

----same up here----

petitnj:

 And Europe's system is subsidized and expensive to ride. The per mile cost of a train ticket is typically about 3 times the coach fare of Amtrak.

First for subsides -- typical symantics at it's worst.  The FAA employes aircraft controllers -- subsidy or just gov't employees?  Cities fund airports thru bond issues -- subsidy or just part of gov't debt?  The Army Corps of Engineers build locks and dams, dredge canals and the like -- subsidy for barge lines or just part of their budget ??  Ditto for the Coast Guard who uses ice breakers to open up Lake Superior for the ore boats -- subsidy or just their duty to perform??  The whole subsidy issue is a pretty lame excuse to me.

I used to live in Reno, NV but now enjoy my retirement in Trieste, Italy where I make frequent trips to Venice -- by rail of course.  I also have made many rail trips over Donner on my way to visit my son in San Jose.  I will make a quick comparison of the two routes as in some ways they are similar.  Neither route is high speed, with the first 20 or so miles out of Trieste resembling Donner in respect to the curvature, where the line hugs steep limestone cliffs along the coast, using several long stone arch bridges and several tunnels in the process.  There are 32 trains each way to Venice (half via Udine, which is a longer, less direct route), Amtrak has 1 each way to Sacramento and there is only one route.

Trieste to Venice is 71 miles for a ride that lasts 2 hours 6 minutes.  There are 9 intermediate stops and the trip costs $13.62 at present exchange rates.  The whole thing equates to 19.18 cents per mile with an average speed of  33.8 MPH.  The first 20 minutes is slow running as the limit in this portion is 30 to 60 MPH due to curves.  There is a 90 MPH limit on the plains and this is normal for everyday trains.  I estimate the speeds thru the curves to be 25 MPH faster than in the US and you can definetely feel the centifigal force, something you do not experience on Amtrak.  Most trains are Regional work-a-day trains, altho we do get one Eurostar to Rome, a few EuroStar City trains, and several CisAlpina trains bound for Switzerland, but they do not go into Vencie Santa Lucia Station but stop in Venice Mestre on the mainland.  On time arrival within 2 minutes -- 100 %, with most arrivals within 30 seconds or so.

Reno to Sacramento is 111 miles for a ride that lasts 3 hours 50 minutes. There are 3 intermediate stops and the trip costs $42.00.  The whole thing equates to 37.84 cents per mile at an average speed of 28.93 MPH.  The speed over Donner is 30 MPH due to grade and curvature, and except for a short stretch of 79 MPH running, the max speed allowed anywhere is 50 MPH.  You do not feel the curves at all.  On time arrival within 30 minutes -- ZERO.  One trip was 8 hours late, with several more in the 4-6 hour range.  One guy quipped once in this forum that you don't need a watch for the CZ, you need a calendar. 

 It's obvious that Amtrak is way more expensive and a lot slower.  Amtrak's equipment is top notch compared to FS, but their frequency and on-time arrival is near zero.  Once I didn't even get to my destination the same day!  Amtrak's cost per mile is almost double that of FS, and altho the overall speed is roughly equal, FS generally makes a stop every 14 minutes on average, which severely restricts overall speed.  Amtrak averages 1 hour 16 minutes between stops, so that is not much of an issue.

As for freight, the tunnel linking Trieste's port to the mainline passes almost directly under our building, and although I live on the 9th floor, you can still hear the rumble.  I think there's about one every 1 or 2 hours, but they are short and light -- about 30 cars.  But fast!  Their track speed is about 10-15 MPH slower than passenger, which puts them in the 60-70 MPH range.  They do not interfere with the passenger trains at all.

Phoebe Vet:

Words get auto censored in the program, not because they are dirty or curses, but rather because people with aggressive personality disorders use them to intentionally offend or insult people.

And thank goodness you've diagnosed my problem.  I have no problem offending you, since your intial comment offended me.  Interesting also to note that the term 'teabag' when used in conjunction with the tea parties (I'm assuming that is what you were referring to) last summer was meant to be sexually deragatory.  But, since you hold with the majority opinion here, you of course are free to comment at will but I need to be lectured to for my use of profane and obscene language (neither of which it was).

Again, go pound sand.

henry6:

I take it you don't subscribe to any airline magazines.  Or highway construction magazines.  Probably not contractor magazines either.  Certainly you have your model magazine deliverd by UPS and not by the government owned and operated US Postal Service.  Drink water from the tap or bottled water from the store?   Do you even drive a car?

Nope.  I don't drive a car, drink tap water, or read.  In fact, I think I might be illiterate.  As for how my magazine gets here, I just go out to the little rectangle on my front gate and it magically shows up there every month.  I don't understand it, but just assume that it is heaven sent.  Besides - it has pictures.  Big pictures with few words (my favorite kind).