Toy train operating and collecting

I'm getting somewhat confused.

Picked up two new Lionel catalogs: one is for tinplate, mostly std gage, some O gage. The cover says "Lionel Electric Trains" and "Lionel Corporation Tinplate". It goes on to say that 'Lionel Electric Trains' and 'MTH' are working together under the 'Lionel Corporation' banner to produce these tinplate trains, which are copies of Prewar Lionel Tinplate.

This suggests to me that 'Lionel Corporation' is a joint venture between 'Lionel Electric Trains' (whatever that actually is) and 'MTH'.

Do I have this right?

runtime

Ogaugeoverlord:

11th Street:

 "... I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp."

That's because negative posts are generally scorned on this forum. 

Not at all. Insults are scorned. Comments designed to start a fight sure are, as are "Brand X Stinks" posts. But "Brand X stinks because of my personal experience a) b) c) and d) that are factual, not fire bomb like, are okay by me.

Most critical posts (including negative posts about the magazine) don't go away because they are critical, but how the thread devolves into a mud wrasslin' match.

Hmmmmmm...

Didn't realize there was censureship, of that nature, on this forum.

"This suggests to me that 'Lionel Corporation' is a joint venture between 'Lionel Electric Trains' (whatever that actually is) and 'MTH'.  Do I have this right?

Yes. Mike Wolff (MTH) owns four factories, two in Korea and two in China. The  new "Lionel Corporation Tinplate" trains (ie the new "Brute") is being manufactured by ... MTH.

MTH pays Lionel a licensing fee for the right to put Lionel's name on tinplate product manufactured by MTH. By putting Lionel's name on the tinplate product MTH expects to increase sales of the product line. The more tinplate MTH sells the more revenue Lionel receives in licensing fees.

runtime:

Hmmmmmm...

Didn't realize there was censureship, of that nature, on this forum.

Ogaugeoverlord:

runtime:

Hmmmmmm...

Didn't realize there was censureship, of that nature, on this forum.

Yep. Sad but true. This is supposed to be a place of welcome to newcomers. If they see a bunch of grown ups pulling each other's hair out over who's wearing an orange T-shirt or who's wearing a purple T-shirt, they might decide this hobby isn't for them. There are plenty of other places on the web where toy train folk can act like crazies. Not here.

Ogaugeoverlord:

runtime:

Hmmmmmm...

Didn't realize there was censureship, of that nature, on this forum.

Yep. Sad but true. This is supposed to be a place of welcome to newcomers. If they see a bunch of grown ups pulling each other's hair out over who's wearing an orange T-shirt or who's wearing a purple T-shirt, they might decide this hobby isn't for them. There are plenty of other places on the web where toy train folk can act like crazies. Not here.

Rather prefer it that way.  Been to the other sites and it certainly can leave a bad taste for the hobby.  If we are to grow the hobby, have to make a place where families can bring their children.  I certainly would not allow my children to visit a site where name calling and rude behavior are accepted.  Just glad CTT folks let us come here to share in this hobby.

Dennis

Just before the Wellspring deal, Lionel Trains Incorporated purchased the exclusive rights to the Lionel name and about a year later the remaining assets of The Lionel Corporation.  This included more than just the purchase of the "Lionel" name, but all of the files, office furniture from New York, whatever else was left.  At the time Richard Kughn even joked about getting all the dust left from the original Lionel Corp.  At this point, the tables that had been set in 1969 with Lionel the train company licensing from The Lionel Corp. had been spun 180 degrees.  Lionel Trains now owned The Lionel Corp.

 Regarding the un-serviceability  of today's electronics: whatta load of hooey!  The Can motors are easily replaceable, and the electronics can always be replaced with something as good as, if not better than the original.

Want something un-serviceable?  Try an original Scout motor.  Which is easier?  Taking apart and replacing the drum and fingers on an e-unit, or replacing it with electronic reverse?

 I'm now 45.  My hair is turning gray.  The Lionel Corporation of NY,NY has been out of the train business since I was five.  For most people alive today, Lionel, LLC is the ONLY Lionel they've ever known.

Jon  

Kooljock1:

Which is easier?  Taking apart and replacing the drum and fingers on an e-unit, or replacing it with electronic reverse?

$10.00(drum & both contacts - easy to find) vs. $45.00(if you can find them) for the parts on an AC motor... if you have to buy them.  $13.50 for the DC reversing unit, which has to be replaced as a whole.  And there are so many different can motors...

Rob

At this point, the tables that had been set in 1969 with Lionel the train company licensing from The Lionel Corp. had been spun 180 degrees.  Lionel Trains now owned The Lionel Corp.

So to clear this all up, what we have to do now, is spin off the Lionel Corp., and have those who purchase it be those who own Lionel Trains.   Then the Lionel Corp. buys Lionel Trains, and we have back our beloved The Lionel Corp, and in the right order.   With that solved, then we can get down to fixing whatever is wrong with the trains.   Produce those 1950s models, just as they were, label and all.   And then the new Lionel Trains that come out reflecting the changes in railroading as we see them today, and the addition of electronics or such...they too will be our beloved The Lionel Corp.   And everybody should be happy ever after.   In the meantime I will thank those who kept this hobby alive since 1968/69..Some of you were better at it than others....May you all be happy, and have good track ahead of you.

 Debating today’s Lionel Trains vs what was is akin to debating whether today’s Generals (ie General Motors, General Electric, General Mills, West Point generals ... ) are similar to what was 100 yrs ago. For most of us it doesn’t matter. What does matter is that up to 20 yrs ago Lionel still had the O Gauge market all to itself, and now it’s market share is down to 50%. (according to Lionel’s own filing with the bankruptcy judge a few years ago, as reported by ‘locolawyer’ on that other forum).  That fact is not political, but the marketplace decisions of thousands of hobbyists. For many of us the strategy has become “don’t by the Name, buy the train!”  While companies like MTH, Atlas O, Bachmann-Williams, 3rd Rail and secondary players such as Gargraves & Ross have filled in the other 50% some problems continue, often across manufacturer/importer lines. That too is not partisan, although less often heard on this forum and seldom in the hobby press.

Happy Halloween all 

alank:

So to clear this all up, what we have to do now, is spin off the Lionel Corp.,

Lionel liquidated and went out of business in 1993-1994.  It is GONE( "W - E - N - T" ).

Rob

Rob,

 Lionel liquidated and went out of business in 1993-1994.  It is GONE( "W - E - N - T" ).

Hey Rob...I don't care.   I have bought and continue to buy Lionel Trains accross all the companies that produce them.   I have bought other trains as well.   As said earlier all I want is good trains and a reliable company behind them.

"Just before the Wellspring deal, Lionel Trains Incorporated purchased the exclusive rights to the Lionel name and about a year later the remaining assets of The Lionel Corporation.  This included more than just the purchase of the "Lionel" name, but all of the files, office furniture from New York, whatever else was left.  At the time Richard Kughn even joked about getting all the dust left from the original Lionel Corp.  At this point, the tables that had been set in 1969 with Lionel the train company licensing from The Lionel Corp. had been spun 180 degrees.  Lionel Trains now owned The Lionel Corp."

Thank you; this is what I was inquiring about in my original question.  But do we have any actual evidence of this transaction?  I would fathom that while the Lionel Corp. now longer exists in the same context it did half a century ago, it exists in the sense of its "sucessor firm."  Lionel is not alone in this; many countries, social clubs, religions, political parties, etc. perpetuate their respective traditions and cultures even though the original no longer exists in its earliest form.  For example, the most modern of electric locomotives are still locomotives and still pull trains even though they no longer put out steam or inspire novelists as they did half a century ago. 

At least Lionel fared better than Marx, which went out of business almost entirely with very few corporate or product linkages between the "original" Louis Marx & Co. and the various holders of former Marx property and product of the current day (i.e. "Ameritrains").  Lionel LLC can claim that it is a direct descendent of the Lionel Corp. via Mr. Kughn and LTI.

Kooljock1:

Want something un-serviceable?  Try an original Scout motor.  Which is easier?  Taking apart and replacing the drum and fingers on an e-unit, or replacing it with electronic reverse?

Scout motors are not as difficult to service as many people believe. The drive wheels do need to be removed for major work, and it is very helpful to have the service manual pages to make certain everything goes back in the correct place.
As far as e-units go - replacing the drun and lower fingers is a simple job. I find it a bit more difficult to replace the upper fingers. The last time I purchased fingers, they were about $1.50 each. How much are those electronic reverse units?