Toy train operating and collecting

 "... I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp."

That's because negative posts are generally scorned on this forum. 

11th Street:

 "... I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp."

That's because negative posts are generally scorned on this forum. 

Sorry if I started something....  I suppose my original question had less to do with brand and more to do with the seemingly fuzzy relationship between the Lionel of storied history and the Lionel we know of today.  To me, Lionel LLC must have some direct connection, no matter how tumultuous, to the "original" Lionel Corp. dating back to the days of Cowen, if it is to have any credibility. 

Lionel as produced and licenced by Fundimensions and LTI would, I guess, have less of a "full" relationship to Lionel LLC, as the latter apparently actually owns the intellectual property of the Lionel Corp., which is much different than doing a mere licence.  But I don't think it is necessary to place the two into two seperate camps and speak of them as being drastically different or unrelated.  At least General Mills and Mr. Kughn managed to keep  the Lionel reality afloat during the hiatus years until 1995 or so, when the name, intellectual property, etc. were legally reunified with the actual product. 

To those new to the hobby though, I think it would be beneficial if we spoke of Lionel as being like a family tree; all are interrelated somehow, even if not "directly."  No one wants to be told that their 2009 outfit produced by Lionel, LLC is not "real" Lionel because "real" Lionel apparently hit the dust forty years back.

 I look at it this way. A Fender Stratocaster made in Mexico, Japan or China is not the same as one made in Fullerton California with American woods and labor.

I feel the same way about the Chinese made trains. 

IDM1991:

To those new to the hobby though, I think it would be beneficial if we spoke of Lionel as being like a family tree; all are interrelated somehow, even if not "directly."  No one wants to be told that their 2009 outfit produced by Lionel, LLC is not "real" Lionel because "real" Lionel apparently hit the dust forty years back.

 Sorry, but some of us feel that way.
I am not going to start making negative comments about modern era trains, but while a reissued (or reproduced, which ever word you prefer) Lionel Corp piece might be very nice in it's own right, it is not the same as the original Lionel Corp piece.

Sorry, but some of us feel that way.
I am not going to start making negative comments about modern era trains, but while a reissued (or reproduced, which ever word you prefer) Lionel Corp piece might be very nice in it's own right, it is not the same as the original Lionel Corp piece

...Maybe it not the same as an original Lionel Corp piece, but I don't think we can discount it is a Lionel, and connected in some fashion.   At the time Mr. Cowen sold his stock, he was getting up in age, and as an engineer/businessman or what had had his time with the company he started.   When the Lionel Train Line went to MPC, LTI, LLC, it is a continuation of something that had started a long time ago, and was continuing.   A new group of engineers, business people, and the quality reflected what they could bring to the Line.   MPC's early catalogs reflected on the history of Lionel, and so did some of the others.   It wasn't just Brand, but a Product Line, and that being Toy Trains.   As I said in an earlier Post, I try to add things that enhance my collection, and it spans the different times.

      What I like to think about as an engineer is the innovation.   Postwar was a step up from Prewar; electro couplers, etc.  MPC added color and decoration, but I think lost focus with Disney, and other things that distracted from railroading.   The advent of Command Control, I think Mr. Cowen would have liked.   Yes the Lionel Corp. was a different business entity than the others, but for myself who likes railroading, and trains, I see my Lionel as one.  If we didn't have people carrying on the Lionel name, there wouldn't be the opportunity for new enthusiast without strictly living in the past, and there wouldn't be opportunity for new things to come.   I like my trains new and old, and only want a quality piece when I purchase something new.  I also try to live a Lionel spirit, in things I might invent, or repairs I make or how I build my railroad.   My dad is gone now, but the spirit in our family continues with my son and daughter.   I and several of my cousins still continue our trains, and it is just a hobby.

Absolutely. 

The high school I attended was rebuilt architecturally in the 1960's and 1970's, but the school itself dates to 1889.  Like Lionel, it has gone through a minor name change as well.  BUT:  it still provides an education and prepares students for tommorow.  Lionel has gone through business changes, additions, and corporate rebuilds, BUT: it remains the electric train manufacturer dating back almost 110 years. 

It is interesting to point out that, despite the licencing and acquisition tumult of the 70's, 80's, and 90's, the trains themselves have been continuously produced since 1901 or so.  It is clear from Lionel's history that Lionel as a manufacturer of toy trains has always existed despite the different business entities among the Lionel Corp, Fundimensions, LTI, and LLC eras.  Today's trains don't just carry the Lionel brand name, they are Lionel trains in the fullest sense of the word because there is only one Lionel company now, not two (i.e. Lionel Corp. and MPC) as there were thirty years ago.  This would, I think, be due in part to the 1995 reunification.  As I see it, Lionel LLC is like a piece of rolling stock that is coupled to the car directly in front.  The latter may be different than the former, but they nevertheless make up one train. (Maybe I'm becoming too philosophical here).

Lionel LLC, LTI, and MPC can be distinguished from the Lionel Corp. but never divided or seperated from it.  As we've seen from this thread, Lionel is more than a mere brand or corporate concept.  It's a psychological reality.

- Ian D. McKechnie

Fifty five years ago fathers would sneak a train set into the home, set it up on Christmas Eve and on Christmas Day the train set/accessories worked as expected.   If a year or two later something needed repair his sons & an adult would take it to the Lionel 26th St. showroom/repair station and JLC’s own crew would fix it, with perhaps a charge of no more than cost of the part, if that. Without asking for a receipt or when/where it was purchased. And all while you waited, and with a smile.

And now ... ?  Kader/SandaKan-Bachman/Williams offers a lifetime, return to factory warranty. And the others?

If hobby magazine publishers want to begin addressing the myriad of QC, design, warranty, and repair station problems that are  plaguing this hobby then they can very quietly start printing the warranty policy of each product that is reviewed in each issue. Until warranties become substantial and authorized repair stations become fully stocked and ubiquitous, to argue that today’s Guggenheim Trains bears anything more than a topical resemblance to JLC’s Lionel is patently absurd and a disservice to those of us that are on the consumer side of this hobby.  

TCA: 95-xxxxx
Continuous subscriber to CTT & OGR since 1994
First Lionel set/KW transformer: 1953.  

alank:

Maybe it not the same as an original Lionel Corp piece, but I don't think we can discount it is a Lionel, and connected in some fashion

Let's face it, nobody is going to change another's opinion with a posting on a chat board. I see differences in "Lionel" product with each major change in ownership. In my book, only stuff made by the original Lionel Corporation gets the name Lionel withoout quotes.
I like some modern era stuff, made by MPC and LTI. I even own some LLC stuff. But I also own some Kline, and MTH.
The big turn-off for me with later stuff is the electronics, and the lack of serviceability.

 To each his own.

The big turn-off for me with later stuff is the electronics, and the lack of serviceability.

 Now this is a different issue.   I too worry about the electronics on some of my engines, and these things aren't cheap.  I like to run my Century Berk for the sound and the use of Command Control.   I have others that I run this way too, where it wouldn't bother me too much if they were the old E-Unit or what.   I run Postwar and such with the Powermaster, and don't have to be tethered or glued to a tranformer.  With Powermaster I have a big toggle switch, that with a flip lets me go back to using the transformer.   Nothing like having your hand on the throttle.   Serviceability I haven't had any issues on this yet, but wonder about my gaurentee for my culvert loader....that was supposed to be for life to the original owner which I am.   There is something to be said about the old company about reliabilty and simplicity, but we are in 2009.   All I want is good trains, and a reliable company behind them.   I haven't bought any MTH, just because I don't want too(not saying anything negative about MTH, just personal choice in what I want).   I too like Kline, and also like Williams....that is enough for me..Mr. Cowen gave credibility to his company, and a long time after, if these new guys want their trains to be a success, his would be a good model to follow.

alank:

Serviceability I haven't had any issues on this yet, but wonder about my gaurentee for my culvert loader....that was supposed to be for life to the original owner which I am.  

Does Lionel still have parts for your coal loader? On another board, one poor fellow is trying to find a screw for his Acela. He says Lionel doesn't have any. Did that piece come with a lifetime warantee too?
Older Lionel trains were simplier. Yes, there were less detailed, but many parts were used commonly in multiple pieces, so Lionel could keep them available. It wasn't uncommon to be able to obtain parts for items that were thirty years old or more in the 1970's.
LLC certainly does stock a lot of parts, but due to specialization, their application is narrow.

Well in effect the "old" Lionel quit making trains c. 1969. After that for a couple of decades, Lionel trains were basically a division of MPC/Fundimensions. Lionel LLC was then "spun off" from MPC et al and was really a new separate company using the old name and designs.

It's a little like the real railroads, like say Wisconsin Central. It was a separate railroad company early in the 20th century. Later it became affiliated with the Minneapolis, St.Paul and Sault Ste. Marie RR, and eventually was completely folded into the reconfigured "Soo Line". Later a new Wisconsin Central was formed, using mostly former WC trackage bought from the Soo. But it really wasn't the same company, even though it used the same colors and herald etc. that the one 100 years before had used.

cwburfle:

It wasn't uncommon to be able to obtain parts for items that were thirty years old or more in the 1970's.

Lenny Dean published a comprehensive parts list in 1970 with many Standard Gauge parts still in stock at Hillside.

Rob

ADCX Rob:

Lenny Dean published a comprehensive parts list in 1970 with many Standard Gauge parts still in stock at Hillside

The 1970's edition is fairly well known, and fairly easy to obtain. A couple of the more interesting parts available were the 671S and 726S smoke unit conversion kits. Those dated back to 1947.

There is also a 1968 verison in the same format. The Lionel Corp released parts lists periodically over the years.
MPC continued the practice of releasing parts lists. Postwar parts were available in those parts lists too.