General Discussion (Model Railroader)

Interesting info Fred, thanks.

I have a question though, O gauge really started to take off again in the late 90s and past 2000, the best models started coming out from both MTH and Lionel, engines that were never seen before. Take the big steamers like my favorites such as the PRR T1 or S1, both companies seemed to release them at the same time, but who really decided to make these models first?

In HO, broadway limited changed the hobby in the past 10 years for the better in similar ways. High quality plastic and die cast engines with sound and DCC for the cost of far less than older, outdated, and extremely rare brass.

BLI and MTH are the best companies in HO in my opinion of course, they have both added so much to the smaller, more affordable scale and I greatly thank them for that. Its such a shame that they are both loosing interest in the hobby itself and are more concerned with what seem to be petty squabbles. But many stores are refusing to stock BLI anyway due to poor quality control so that company, as much as I love them, they have been in some trouble for some time apparently.

 The suit seems to deal with the reed switch that triggers the smoke unit and chuff. BLI has been using the reed switch/magnet on flywheel for years to trigger the chuff. It only seems natural to use the same trigger for the smoke unit.

  Some may like the MTH products but it was BLI and Spectrum to revolutionize the HO scale steam market. They both make an affordable, good looking steamers for the masses that can afford them. MTH is almost twice the price. Every MTH K4s I see advertised is over $400. I can buy 4 Spectrum K4s locos for that.

  While some modelers may want the smoke units I believe the majority of us will not use it. Leave the smoke and gadgets to the tinplate toys. I never used my old Lionels smoke and will never on my HO scale layout. Sound on the other hand is nice but not necessary.

  BLI has quality control issues but that is due to the overseas manufacturing. Labor is like anything else. You get what you pay for. The price of MTH products seems to indicate a more experienced manufacturer.

  MTH is sue happy. It seems they would sue anyone for anything. I talked to an ex lawyer from UP who told me UP dropped the lawsuit because of the repercussions of bad press. They were made out to be the big bad wolf when all they wanted was to make sure their logo bearing products were done with respect and some sense of taste. Lawsuits in the hobby industries is not a benefit for the end user. It only makes one hesitant in spending their hard earned hobby dollar on their products. For what MTH has done in the past and still continues today than tomorrow there will not be anything from MTH on my layout. I don't need it and neither does the hobby.

     Pete

 Slight OT, but when it comes to smoke - the puffing from the MTH locos looks real, but the smoke just isn't right - too white or something. The best use of a smoke generator in a model I've seen so far? The new Rapido steam generator car. The soflty slowing white 'smoke' really does look like steam escaping.

 As for the topic at hand, it should be really easy to see if they used the same mechanical and control system or not. But it seems that the court seldom works this way. If one uses a fan and the other uses a piston - sorry, not a copy, case closed. From Howard's comments, it sure doesn't seem like they used identical methods to generate smoke puff.

 My personal philosophy is when a company starts to litigate instead of innovate, it's time to bail. See: Netscape, SCO, etc.

                              --Randy

This just put the nail in the coffin. I have no use for lawsuit happy companies. As stated earlier,

Lionel - Bankrupt due to MTH

UP lawsuit - Like he was the main factor in this decision. UP had every right to impose this fee to protect there copyright. I feel they did the right move in the end.

BLI - Both at fault in my opinion. Never use competitors manfacturers and expect some accidental secrets exchanged.

I'm tired of these people ruining our Hobby in the name of the almighty dollar!!! I was already disappointed with MTH customer service/information. I have had to return my first GS-4 due the drivers locking up, second engine moved 6 inches and stopped. Had a friend open the bottom and he found the worm gear shaft had broke.

I am not taking up for BLI either. I have returned numerous engines multiple times for repair.

It would appear that corners are being cut in manufacture,quality,and design in order to save a buck and this hurts us the consumer in the end.

We can all sit around and complain about this all day on this forum, and in the end this thread will become personal and cause hard feelings. Pretty sad............ when you think about it!

 Gee they fight with each other just like the real railroads did how exciting. I honestly don't care who stole what from whom if I get what I want at a decent price and the product works as advertised thats all that matters to me. It's called industrial espionage. If any of the claims made by MTH are true then maybe they should guard their secretes better. All I know is this stuff gets old real fast.

rjake4454:

Interesting info Fred, thanks.

I have a question though, O gauge really started to take off again in the late 90s and past 2000, the best models started coming out from both MTH and Lionel, engines that were never seen before. Take the big steamers like my favorites such as the PRR T1 or S1, both companies seemed to release them at the same time, but who really decided to make these models first?

MTH certainly claimed they were the first to decide to make these models in their legal filings.  But IIRC, Lionel was first to release a couple of the models.  Certain folks in the Korean manufacturer were convicted of selling MTH plans and designs to Lionel.  But the settlement covered up any further discovery of facts.  And the settlement allowed Lionel to come out of bankruptcy.  MTH was pretty much forced to settle because of the reduction of the award amount at each step in the appeals process, plus the limits on much MTH was going to be able to extract from Lionel while Lionel was sheltered in bankruptcy.  Basically, I don't know the real answer, and I don't think anybody else on the outside does either.

In HO, broadway limited changed the hobby in the past 10 years for the better in similar ways. High quality plastic and die cast engines with sound and DCC for the cost of far less than older, outdated, and extremely rare brass.

BLI and MTH are the best companies in HO in my opinion of course, they have both added so much to the smaller, more affordable scale and I greatly thank them for that. Its such a shame that they are both loosing interest in the hobby itself and are more concerned with what seem to be petty squabbles. But many stores are refusing to stock BLI anyway due to poor quality control so that company, as much as I love them, they have been in some trouble for some time apparently.

I don't have anything from either manufacturer in HO, and am unlikely to do so.  I model an earlier period that uses small steam locomotives.  The biggest locomotive I would use would be a 19th Century 2-8-0.  And I much prefer to build or bash my locomotives and cars, since I only need a few for my small layout.  Getting away from display running of RTR collections was my main reason for leaving O gauge.  Now I'm not knocking those who do those things that I don't - these are just my personal preferences.

I still do have a couple of items from MTH in 3 rail O.  You are right, in the '90s their quality and new tooling was head and shoulders above Lionel's.  Lionel finally faced reality in the mid to late '90s, and moved their production to Asia - which got them entangled (possibly deliberately?) with MTH's production.  But it did bring Lionel's production values in line with the rest of the 3 rail O market.

From every report I have read, MTH locomotives, steam or diesel, produce significantly more smoke than the competition.  Again, I don't know first hand.  It appears that MTH HO also has the smoke quantity advantage.

just my thoughts

Fred W

 And once again the reason I will never buy an MTH unit.  I swear that is all he does is sit around and tries to figure out how to sue people.

Of course this whole country is rampant with patents for silly things, especially related to software.  People are trying to patent algorithms that have been published since the mid 1970s, well they aren't trying the patent office is letting them.  Seems like common sense and prior usage mean nothing anymore.
 

Pete,
About the UP mess: UP had a change of CEO's, and the new one wasn't as dedicated to the issue as the old one was.  Also, from what I hear, MTH's lawyers 1st order of business was to ask for all memos and paperwork that UP had on the licensing issue.  This resulted in many hours of billable time, which only further weakened UP's resolve on the issue.  Since this seemed destined to take some serious time and effort to deal with MTH's lawyers and since it was bad PR to boot, UP decided to end the issue.  MTH, to their credit, made sure it applied to all manufacturers and not just them.  And the poor Steamscenes calendar guy also got a deal.

BTW, that source of yours is blowing smoke (pun intended).  There was no way in heck that UP was merely concerned that "...their logo bearing products were done with respect and some sense of taste."  Ha!  And again I say HA!  They wanted control.  Did you ever read the agreement?  I did when it was first put on their website.  A manufacturer had to send UP a production model (not a pre-production) to them for authorization.  If UP said "No", then the manufacturer had to destroy all copies of the product.  This, of course, meant that UP could bankrupt any model company in short order.  If UP said yes, and the model company ended production of the product, then the UP-related tooling would have to turned over to UP.  Instead of a flat fee of something like $1 per year, UP wanted a percentage of the total sales of the entire company (for which, the company in question would have to surrender their financial books to UP for judgement), or a piece of the action for every UP model sold.  And it wasn't just UP logos.  UP wanted a piece of the pie for every railroad they ever owned going back a 130+ years, even tho' they had tried (and succeeded in many cases) to obliterate these logos themselves.  Heck, they even had a couple railroads listed on their website that they never owned!  That's how greedy UP was.  They also wanted penalties going back years.  I know a decal company had to pay for something like 5 years worth of UP product rights...dating way before UP started this policy.

UP really was the big bad wolf, and they deserve every rotten thing that was ever said about them on this issue.

Jeff,
It was not proven that UP "had every right".  It never went to trial.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

At this rate I'll start suggesting that we need a Phil Edmunston's Lemon Aid Guide To All Things MRR. Put the mfg's on some sort of notice that since the MSRP's seem to be going up and up that maybe they better look a little closer at their QC---rather than all the fancy gewgaws----

Or---

 As a three rail O gauge hobbiest who has followed this saga for about 15 years, my take is rather different than many in the hobby.  I've actually met Bob Grubba, but not Mike Wolf, although I've heard him talk often enough in public settings and read his comments in the media.  I'm not a technical expert in this particular area of electronic and mechanical devices, but am a trained scientist and familiar with patent law from personal experience.  Grubba is a trained engineer.  Wolf is not.  Grubba has a record of just making products and keeping his mouth shut. Wolf has a record of complaining about others and suing them whenever things aren't going well for his company.  That's a telling, inarguable set of facts. Here's my take:

If Bob Grubba were guilty of doing half the things Mike Wolf has
accused him of doing, he would have stood trial in criminal
proceedings. The fact that he hasn't suggest Mike Wolf is full of it.
Wolf no doubt believes his fantasies that he has publicly created
about him being victimized by others. The fact of the matter is that
he is technically incompetent and not an entirely successful decision
maker. He is also pathologically competitive, a consummate egotist
and a sore loser. It makes for an ugly picture. Too bad, as he is a
very able marketer, hard worker and quite creative in some ways.

In the meanwhile, many in hobby have assumed, based upon a thin
tissue of erroneous assumptions, inadequate information and outright
lies that Bob Grubba is personally guilty of some unethical behavior.
The facts available to me and the technical information that is
public suggest he has been greatly wronged by those in the hobby. If
anyone has engaged in unethical and anti-competitive business
practices, I would suggest it is someone other than Bob Grubba.
There are clearcut ways for demonstrating that technical devices are
exact duplicates of your own. It is interesting that, to my knowledge,  at no time has MTH ever tried to demonstrate that Lionel's or BLI's technology is a copy of their own. Grubba keeps his mouth shut.  Mike Wolf uses the media to try cases that appear, at least to me, to have no technical merit and appear to be using the law to win in the courts what he cannot win in the marketplace. Case closed in my view.

     I wish that they would both spend this wasted energy and time in figuring out why they can't seem to deliver their advertised products on time and improving quality controll !!  It would be nice if these people would compete in the market place instead of the courtroom.

     If this issue is over syncronized smoke coming out of the stack on a model locomotive then it truly is sad because most people could care less. I have two of MTH's steam engines and the smoke units are only turned on to show people what it looks like then it is turned off. While I realize that some people really like these features I could care less about some of the new features they are coming out with, I'm just glad to get engines that I thought would never be manufactured.

     If someone steals something from someone else then deal with it in court. But if the problem is something as trivial as this then get back to the business of taking care of the customer and keeping him happy!!

    I'm sorry if this rant offends anyone but this is just how I feel!

Jim