General Discussion

The recent discussion on Official Guides led me to start looking closely at the equipment lists for passenger trains, which led me to check out the book Night Trains from the library.

What was the business model for Pullman?  How did they make money?  Did they contract out to the railroads, or did they collect revenue from the passengers and pay to the railroads for handling the cars?

 

Any books out there on this aspect of Pullman?

Night Trains is a fascinating book.  Not so long ago one could really travel by train in style.  Jets and interstates changed that.

Any personal Pullman stories out there?

ed

If you'd like to see a Pullman car in pretty good condition with a really good interpretive display on the life of the Pullman Porter, the Natl. RR Museum at Green Bay opened a new exhibit last year inside Pullman car Lake Mitchell, with several 3D avitars guiding the tour.

http://www.pullmanporters.org/

 

 From The Historical Guide to North American Railroads:

"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light.  The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy."

Nick

nbrodar:

 From The Historical Guide to North American Railroads:

"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light.  The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy."

Nick

This is not too unlike what the Australians call a hook-and-pull arrangement.  Amtrak had a similar arrangement with American European Express.  Amtrak billed AEE for the movement of five private cars between Chicago and Washington and AEE collected its fares from its passengers.

Are you familiar with this series of articles that appeared in Trains ?  There's a lot of insight there . . .

A million miles-plus in the uniform of George M. Trains, February 1970 page 40 Diary of a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN )

Pullman from the peak of troop travel to the impact of the jet Trains, March 1970 page 40 Diary of a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN )

It's gonna be one of those trips, captain Trains, May 1972 page 38 Pullman conductor's work ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN )

The life of a Pullman conductor was not all bad Trains, October 1972 page 38 working as a Pulllman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN )

Once again with Conductor Moedinger Trains, December 1976 page 22 working as a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN ) And this one, indexed under a slightly different name:

Conductor Moedinger rides again
Trains, June 1976 page 22
working as a Pullman conductor
( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM", PULLMAN, TRAVEL, TRN )

-Paul North.

Paul_D_North_Jr:

Are you familiar with this series of articles that appeared in Trains ?  There's a lot of insight there . . .

Yes. These are well worth reading. Mr. Moedinger wrote, not only for the people who were fully familiar with all the ins and outs of Pullman travel, but also for the people who had very little, if any knowledge of civilized (First Class) travel. 

Johnny

CSSHEGEWISCH:

"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light.  The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy."

Hmm; I always had the impression that the railroad received the full value of the rail ticket, charging a higher fare because a sleeper could not carry as many passengers as a coach could, and thus attempting to gain as much revenue as possible from each car. With the first class tariff running perhaps 50% higher than coach, and a full load of about 20 passengers, the railfare income would be equivalent to that of 30 coach passengers--and a coach could carry 50-60 passengers. Well, well.

Johnny

MP173:

Any books out there on this aspect of Pullman?

Another interesting book is Travel by Pullman, by Joe Welsh and Bill Howes (MBI Publishing Company, 2004) My wife and I have thoroughly enjoyed this book. She fell in love with train travel when she was about ten years old and an aunt took her from Miami to New York City by Pullman (she does not know if it was an SAL or ACL train; she only knows that it was an overnight trip)."When night came, the seats turned into beds (she and her aunt each had a lower), and I was fascinated by the swaying green curtains." Since then, she traveled by Pullman as often as she could. She tells of going to New York from Memphis by way of Asheville (change in Knoxville and Asheville) and returning to Memphis on a through car via the PRR and L&N.

Johnny

Johnny's post above reminded me - there were several 'wrap-up' articles in Trains in the mid-1960s when Pullman Co. operations ended.  I believe the Oct. 1967 one below may have even included a line or route diagram:

Mr. Pullman revisited Trains, January 1965 page 20 riding the U.S.'s last heavyweight Pullman line ( "MORGAN, DAVID P.", PULLMAN, TRAVEL, TRN )

America's unremarked and reluctant but quite splendid innkeepers: the railroa Trains, October 1965 page 26 Pullman gets as much credit as Ritz ( "BEEBE, LUCIUS", PULLMAN, TRN )

Pullman prolificacy Trains, October 1967 page 24 When Pullman cars went everywhere ( PULLMAN, "SHAFFER, FRANK E.", SLEEPER, TRN )

A Pullman Postscript Trains, November 1969 page 20 photos of Pullman Company operations and history ( "DUBIN, ARTHUR D.", PHOTO, PULLMAN, TRN ) George M. Pullman lives Trains, August 1977 page 20 Pullman's intentions live on through the work of a porter ( "FREEMAN, CHARLES", FRONTISPIECE, "MORGAN, DAVID P.", PULLMAN, SR, TRN ) Also, I believe Arthur D. Dubin was the 'go-to' expert on all things Pullman, and may have written some books.  See if you can find any by him, too. - Paul North.

Paul_D_North_Jr:

Also, I believe Arthur D. Dubin was the 'go-to' expert on all things Pullman, and may have written some books.  See if you can find any by him, too.

I recommend Art Dubin's Some Classic Trains and More Classic Trains.

Here are two links to videos that show travel on the pre-1938 Twentieth Century Limited. They are found on the thread "Flight of the Century" on the Classical Trains Forum. I forwarded them to my wife, and she enjoyed them greatly.

Part One:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yZY8_-xg4 

Part Two:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhSj_h5m0gQ

Johnny

Paul_D_North_Jr:

Are you familiar with this series of articles that appeared in Trains ?  There's a lot of insight there . . .

 

A million miles-plus in the uniform of George M. Trains, February 1970 page 40 Diary of a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN )

Pullman from the peak of troop travel to the impact of the jet Trains, March 1970 page 40 Diary of a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN )

It's gonna be one of those trips, captain Trains, May 1972 page 38 Pullman conductor's work ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, TRN )

The life of a Pullman conductor was not all bad Trains, October 1972 page 38 working as a Pulllman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN )

Once again with Conductor Moedinger Trains, December 1976 page 22 working as a Pullman conductor ( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM M.", PULLMAN, RAILROADER, TRN ) And this one, indexed under a slightly different name:

 

Conductor Moedinger rides again
Trains, June 1976 page 22
working as a Pullman conductor
( CONDUCTOR, "MOEDINGER, WILLIAM", PULLMAN, TRAVEL, TRN )

-Paul North.

Paul, your post piqued my desire to re-read Conductor Moedinger's articles (I have them all copied and put together, so I do not have to dig the issues out of storage).

In reading the installment in the March, 1970, issue, I found the answer to a question that had been posed, and not answered on one of the quiz threads some time back. The question concerned the date that Pullman was allowed to re-instate overnight service on lines that were less than 450 miles in length, and the answer is that on 3/15/1946 such service as New York-Buffalo, New York-Boston, and New York-Washington was again available to the traveling public. The order canceling all sleeper lines less than 450 miles in length was promulgated in 1945 so that more sleepers would be available for troop train use as servicemen were brought back home after the end of World War II (which one boy in my fifth grade class called "World War Eleven," even though we had studied Roman numerals in the fourth grade)

Johnny.

'' . . . after the end of World War II (which one boy in my fifth grade class called "World War Eleven," even though we had studied Roman numerals in the fourth grade)''

Johnny - that's a candidate for the 'Humor' thread - although it could also be [mis]used to illustrate the sorry state of education today (the '[mis]' being that fact that I suspect it actually occurred quite a few years ago ?). 

- Paul

If ever in Chicago visiting the community of Pullman and the Pullman visitor center is a must stop.  Pullman built a model community with all the amentities including sewers and running water.  About 1/2 square mile of it still exists including the hotel and portions of the factory.  Every October there is a walking tour where many residents open their homes for inspection.  The visitor center has a film about the company and many artifacts.  Pullman always envisioned the entire project of making, owning and operating rail cars as well as the community as an investment and had numerous investors.  Much ill will occured during the Pullman strike when he attempted to evict workers because they were affecting the investment bottom line.  Around 1948 plus or minus a couple of years the government decided Pullman was a monopoly and forced them to give up ownership of the cars or the crewing and servicing of them.  Most of the cars were sold to the railroadfs and operated and manned by Pullman porters. Obviously Pullman knew which was the lucrative end of the business.  Pullman continued to make cars.  I believe the last cars made by Pullman at their Hammond Indiana plant were the Amtrak Superliners.

Several sources I have heard and read say that at one time, averaging 100,000 passengers a night, Pullman was considered the world's largest hotel chain.

Deggesty:

CSSHEGEWISCH:

"The arrangement with the railroads was usually that Pullman provided the cars, fully furnished and staffed, and the railroads hauled them and provided heat and light.  The railroad received the regular coach fare for each passenger, and Pullman received a supplement fare plus a charge for berth or seat occupancy."

Hmm; I always had the impression that the railroad received the full value of the rail ticket, charging a higher fare because a sleeper could not carry as many passengers as a coach could, and thus attempting to gain as much revenue as possible from each car. With the first class tariff running perhaps 50% higher than coach, and a full load of about 20 passengers, the railfare income would be equivalent to that of 30 coach passengers--and a coach could carry 50-60 passengers. Well, well.

Johnny

Problem is that - at least when Pullman both owned and operated the cars - you had two tickets not one. The train conductor collected your ticket for riding on the train, that fare went to the railroad. The Pullman conductor collected the ticket for your berth or compartment, that money went to Pullman. All the Pullman employees on the Pullman cars reported to the Pullman conductor and were paid by Pullman. (BTW they weren't just the sleeping car stewards. Pullman also owned and operated diners, club cars, parlor cars and such.)