General Discussion (Model Railroader)

1. There are dozens of engines you cannot get any other way.

2. They are much better detailed. Even the newest plastic and die cast are only " almost as nice".

3. I don't think they are better runners these days and after you put sound and a DCC decoder in them, they are not easier.

But ther are still the only way to get some great steam models.

Anybody remember those brass Pacific Fast Mail advertisements in Model Railroader?  ...many of which were made with "lost wax" molds, imported from Pacific-Rim countries?  ...always expensive and with good reason?  The detail was astonishing whether seen in a photograph or in person.

To me certain brass manufacturers engines will outlast any of the plastic ones and they will pull more without resorting to traction tires, along with railroad specific details.

If you want I will compare my Key NYC J3a details against the MTH one any day and the Key locomotive will be better.

Rick

This is about the 50th topic about "WHY BUY BRASS". Do a search. There is about 50 yes & no answers to your topic. Brass is better & plastic is better for tons of questions.

Mike

Sparkyjay: 

Good question, one that seems to be more frequently asked these days, what with the high-quality detailing of some of the newer plastic steamers. 

In my case, except for two locomotives, it's the only way I can get steam for the railroad that I model--the Rio Grande standard gauge.   The two non-brass Rio Grande locos that I have are the Proto2000 USRA 2-8-8-2 Rio Grande L-107 clone, and while it is a beautiful locomotive,  a smooth runner and exquisitely detailed, it doesn't have near the pulling power of my Oriental Limited brass model of the same locomotive.  However, it's a great 'helper' locomotive (which was basically what the prototype was used for) and looks GREAT!  

The other non-brass Rio Grande loco is the L-97 4-6-6-4 which is an almost exact copy of the Union Pacific Challenger.  Rio Grande was assigned these locos late in WWII, didn't like them at all and sold them as fast as they could.  Mine's a very powerful Genesis loco, but unforunately, since my MR is DC, and the loco is dual-mode DC/DCC, I can't run it with any of my other locos, so it sees very limited usage on my railroad (somewhat like the use the prototypes saw on the real Rio Grande, LOL!). 

However, since those are the only two non-brass Rio Grande prototypes, and the Rio Grande is my favorite railroad, it's pretty necessary that I go brass for the other prototypes.   Over the years, I've collected a fairly large (around 50) brass Rio Grande prototypes.  Some of them have run magnificently straight out of the box, others have had to be worked on a bit, ALL of them occasionally take some 'tinkering' if they've been run a lot (what the heck, so did the prototypes!).   Just about all of them have been re-weighted or re-balanced at one time or another, and just about all of them are capable of handling almost as many cars as their various prototypes.  Traction tires are non-existant on my MR, I don't even know what they look like. 

I accept the detailing on brass as a matter of course.  Some of my locos are much more detailed than others, but that's part of the 'growth' of the brass industry over the years--more and better detailing.  Some of my older brass locos look a little 'bare' compared to my newer locos--and I've cured that with castings from Cal-Scale and PSC to a great degree, but I also use the '3-foot' rule--if it looks presentable from that distance, and runs well and pulls what it's supposed to, then I'm a Happy Camper. 

It's been said that older brass was built to run and newer brass is built to 'look at', but I think that's a fallacy.  Actually, most of my older brass has been re-motored and in some cases re-geared, and most of my newer brass runs very smoothly (occasionally with a little work).   My newest brass locomotive, a PSC Rio Grande F-81 2-10-2 has been absolutely flawless since the day I unwrapped it and put it on the tracks.  I'd match it any day of the week for control, smoothness and power against anything currently available from BLI or MTH. 

So, to sum it up:  Brass will get you the locos that you can't get from contemporary plastic.  Not everyone that likes road-specific steam models UP, PRR or N&W.  

Brass often takes more work, but is very forgiving--and simpler-- to work with.  And it's one Heck of a lot easier to get into than current plastic locos if you need to do any motor or gear tuning. 

Brass can be re-weighted and re-balanced quite easily.  Try and find room in the current plastic boilers for additional weight--it's all taken up with electronic geegaws. 

Brass mechanisms are almost indestructable.  I've never had a split gear in any of my brass locos, and some of them date from the 1960's. 

Negative:  

Brass, because of its left-right pickup between loco and tender does not always take kindly to DCC without additional wiring.   I'm DC, so this is a non-issue.  But for DCC users used to all-wheel pickup, this can sometimes be a detriment to conversion.   

New Brass is EXPENSIVE!!!   But---you can find used brass at many hobby shops that feature a large selection, for often less than the price of a new plastic steamer.  It might have to do with the economy, but a lot of older brass 'collections' are appearing on the market at very reasonable prices. 

Brass takes 'tinkering'.  It comes with the territory, so to speak.  But brass owners like myself automatically take that into consideration.  We really, for the most part, don't mind the 'tinkering', because the result is usually a very fine running, fine looking locomotive. 

Most brass is built to much tighter tolerances than current plastic.  A brass Articulated isn't going to go around an 18" curve, simply because brass is 'prototypically' articulated--only the front set of drivers swings.  In fact, many non-articulated long wheel-based brass locos won't accept anything less than a 30" radius.   Example:  I have several older brass articulateds that can squeeze around a 24" radius if called upon--with a FEARSOME boiler overhang--, yet I have several 4-8-2, 4-8-4 and 2-10-2 brass non-articulateds that DEMAND at least a 30" radius.   The MTH UP 4-12-2 will, I understand, traverse a 22" radius with ease.  A brass version of the same model requires something closer to a 42" radius.  

So in conclusion, I would say that if you're DCC, have a MR with relatively tight radii and are modeling a prototype that is fairly well represented steamwise with the current locos from BLI, MTH, Proto or Spectrum, go for it.  They're all pretty nifty locos. 

But if you're like me and have chosen one of the railroads in a 'niche' category where the only way you can go is brass--well, then, you go for it and adjust. 

And believe me, I've never regretted the adjustment.  Not one bit.  You can't get this puppy in plastic, but in brass--oboy, does she do the job!

Tom

Tom has provided a cogent response.  Lucky for you all, because I thought the question was rather naive....Perhaps I've been in this hobby too long.

Mark

Brass has always been about beautiful detail. Running characteristics were another story. Years ago they were DC controlled if ever run at all.

I was very naive about brass many years ago. I was invited to see a layout at a modelers home. The HO scale layout was awesome. I saw a freight train that had great looking detailed rolling stock pulled by an unpainted brass locomotive. I made the big mistake of asking why the loco could not be painted a nice color. I was almost asked to leave because of an insulting question. His attention to prototype detail ended at painting brass. You never ask why it is not painted I was told. I was never invited back.

Rich

Todays high quality plastic deisels, with all their etched metal parts and prototype specific details, beat brass IMO. There are things that just can't be done in brass as well as it can in plastic. Things like the nose contours of an F unit or the EMD knuckle buster door handles for example. The only way I would buy a brass deisel would be if it wasn't available in a quality plastic model.

  Brass steam on the other hand is fanominal and still beats anything that has been brought out in plastic or die cast. Besides the fact that for someone like me who likes CB&Q steam , brass is the only option.

Rich, then that guy was a Snobbish brass owner to act that way.  Its been said the guys that leave brass in its unpainted state, do so that others will know they can afford brass.   I usualy have 1 or two engines I leave in thier natural state, they do look pretty that way.  But most get painted, either by me or my custom painter into thier proper road name.  To me a finely painted and weathered brass engine is as beautifull as the unpainted one.  Espicaly if it runs smooth, has a nice working headlight and pulls well.   From a newbie to the brass world, that question wouldnt be insulting, but a chance to explain why I might choose to leave the model in that state.  Not to be an arrogant *** about it.  Brass is a love it or hate it relationship.   One must be either deep pocketed to buy it and pay someone else to get it to run good and maybe paint it.  Or your a tinker like myself and others and take immese joy in watching a smooth running brass engine that you spent many hours tuning, balancing and weighting to run and pull well.  The wonderfull comments that follow from fellow modelers are another side benefit.    Mike

Given my prototype, and the time I was gathering my roster, I had two basic choices; brass and fugheddaboudit.  Since I couldn't run a railroad with 'fugheddaboudit,' I bought brass:

• In Japan.
• In kit form.
• Mostly from manufacturers working out of storefronts and hobby shops the size of my living room.

Several decades later, some (but not all) of the manufacturers are producing and selling slightly better kits (can motors instead of open-frame) at five times the price in Yen (and, if I want one, 20 times the price I once paid, plus shipping and customs.)  A very few have been offered in plastic - they aren't quite as well detailed and don't have the weight of their older brethren.

Once locomotives are painted, weathered and placed in service, who knows, or cares, what material they're made of?  My only concern is whether that D51 class mike can clear the upgrade before #11 is scheduled to use it.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with brass, Zamac and, gasp! steel locomotives) 

Like others have said in some cases it's pretty much the only way to acquire some models that will probably never see the light of day as plastic kits. This is usually true of obscure roadnames or engines and freight cars that were either one off or only owned by one railroad.  Also for a long time brass imports were much better detailed and usually more closely resembled specific prototype models than plastic kits. 

dirtyd79:

Like others have said in some cases it's pretty much the only way to acquire some models that will probably never see the light of day as plastic kits. This is usually true of obscure roadnames or engines and freight cars that were either one off or only owned by one railroad. 

Since steam locomotives have little in common if one really looks into it, the handful of available non-brass locomotives covers maybe one-thousandths-of-a-percent of the prototype.  So, it isn't the obscure that isn't modeled in non-brass, but virtually all steam isn't modeled in non-brass.

Mark

I like the way brass looks.  Granted, today's plastic models are darned good, but there are still a few tip-offs that they are plastic.  That's one reason I like brass.

For me, they are also something I admired as a kid.  I was in high-school and college in the '70s and I'd look at the brass models in the hobby shop display cases and admire the models in the PFM/United/Tenshodo/NWSL ads.  I wanted them so bad I could taste it, but for me, $75 (the price at the time) for a brass shay was way out of reach; I promised myself that someday I'd own such fine models.  I'm in my 50s now, and someday has arrived.  I buy them used and do whatever repairs/upgrades are needed to make them run as good as they look.

I also enjoy tinkering.  To me, the fine-tuning that brass models typically require is part of the fun.  Simply taking a model out of the box and putting it on the track is leaving out an important part of the hobby - me.  I like to be more engaged with my models.

Regarding painting them.  I'd love to do it, but I'm not sure enough of my skills so they run bare right now.  Someday, they'll all be properly painted, lettered, and weathered.  In the meantime, I'm not insulted if someone asks why they're not painted - I'll answer them straight up - the painter is still honing his skills.

I have one model that is a display case "queen" - It's an NWSL 0-6-0 that was once owned by Linn Westcott.  I keep it like my autographed baseballs - it represents more to me than the fine model that it is; it's a connection to someone I admire.