General Discussion

Yep the Engine KNOWS the differance thanks to a Sensor downstream of the Catalytic Convertor think something like a O2 sensor on your car.  It can tell if the engine is producing to much NOX and if so will Regen the Cataylist.  Going down the road they are not to bad however at idle it sucks BIG TIME.  Imagine an Alco that had a blown turbo with it coming out of a tunnel in Notch 8 that is what you get.

Johnny: 

 My only exposure to Urea manufacturing facilities was a plant built at Woodstock, Tn. (B'tween Millington, and Memphis) Some of their feedstock was piped to them from the DuPont plant, which made sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide by electrolosis.  And at a Urea plant at Armorel, Ar. 

At that time the Wodstock plant was a facility of WR Grace and made a prilled Urea product for AGRICULTURAL fertilizers, I know this plant had excess CO as they sold it (CO2) to Cardox who trucked all over the area.  The Armorel facility made its Urea by burning natural gas and utilized a catalytic process to create its Urea.  Both of these plants changed hands on what seemed to be a regular basis.     

I had the opportunity to sit through a session with some engineers who are pretty familiar with the SCR process and sat through the corporate roll out of the new Navastar MaxForce 15 engine.  

 The Navistar MaxForce is an advanced EGR engine that recirculates exhaust gas through the engine to reduce emissions.  No urea or filter needed.  They based it off of an existing block and used what they described as proven European Technology (i.e.  Mann Truck company).    They touted the benefit of not needing urea.   As noted, Urea freezes close to the freezing point of water however it also gases at approx 115 degrees F, which could be a problem in some environments. 

Detroit Diesel is building a 2010 SCR engine that will have a 23 gallon urea tank, which in most long haul applications, would be about 10% of the fuel capacity of the truck.   If the truck is pulling, it should stay hot enough to keep the ceramic SCR filter / converter clean.  It may cycle periodically.  However if the truck is idled for a while, the SCR fillter will start to clog.  The driver can hit a re-gen button which increases RPM and then the urea is fed into the exhaust stream to purge the filter.   Operators are warned not to park under a flammable awning or under a tree is the hot exhaust could start a fire.   I foresee a bit of a mess in handling the jugs of Urea. 

The SCR engine will be 500-1000 lbs heavier which doesn't help with cargo capacity at all. 

Adding the SCR stuff, plus an APU (aux power unit) in places where you can't idle the truck (which is a growing list) its adding a lot of weight to the truck. .... and before someone says "Hey - what a boon for the RR's", its not going to be the golden goose that moves freight from truck to box cars (there's a lot of reasons that it won't, reliabilty and speed of transit chiefly) and it applies to trucks moving intermodal loads as well, so it just screws everyone up." 

Doublestack:

I have heard that most chain truckstops will add a second pump at the fuel island for the urea, that should take care of part of the mess.

As for the hot exhaust part, last winter, when it was 0 deg near Syracuse, NY, I watched one of our trucks with a weed burner exhaust melt through about 6 inches of snowpack in our drop yard, just from high idle and regeneration.  The hole was about two feet across, if I remember correctly.

Doublestack:

                     No one responding has mentioned this, so I guess I'll throw it out.

  A.)The 2010 Compliance Rule, is there a time frame mentioned to retrofit existing equipment?

  B.)Can existing equipment be retrofitted, successfully?  (b.) To rail and automotive diesels as well?  

  C.) Is the same requirement for levels of NOx abatement going to be demanded of Rail, and other  heavy diesel (agricultural,construction,industrial) applications as well as trucks and automobiles?

   Having driven trucks OTR for a number of years, I can see this system being added to an industry that will be problematic. A lot of drivers suffer from a whole range of misinformation, and knowledge, as well as abilities to process technical informarion; those same drivers knowledge base is based on trial and error, or OJT (on the job) training.

  An APU is also going to be needed for most OTR units as drivers living in the trucks require a certain level of comfort for living and sleeping in the truck. Apu's do add more weight to the TARE of the truck, critical for loading to avoid over weight  fines. The Heat of the exhaust system is going to require an upward exhaust of the stacks, to avoid road surface damage from directed high heat, ( Remember the story of UP's Big Blows, and how they were supposed to have melted the asphalt road surfaces when the locomotive exhaust was directed upward under an overhead bridge).

One thing about it, as this system becomes wide spread it is going to be in the middle of many headache situations, both traffic and otherwise.

Sam, already the Great Lakes shipping industry is concerned about the coming changes in their industry. Some of the boats are equipped with EMD 645 engines, but they burn a heavier oil than railroad versions. They will, however be able to switch fuels, many other boats have larger diesels or boilers and turbines, they are going to have problems.

Correct and CARB the California Air Resources Board is mandateing that ALL OTR trucks that even come into CA be 2010 Compliant by IIRC by 2018 so and then meet the future regs 2 years later so basically if your a small O/O or company YOUR SCREWED.  No company will give you the loan to Retrofit the equipment into your truck.  California is BROKE.  Plus CARB is getting ready to require any and all ships that make a port call at any port in CA meet the EPA regs even if they are NOT flagged in the USA.  Going to be fun in court on that one.

edbenton:

Correct and CARB the California Air Resources Board is mandateing that ALL OTR trucks that even come into CA be 2010 Compliant by IIRC by 2018 so and then meet the future regs 2 years later so basically if your a small O/O or company YOUR SCREWED.  No company will give you the loan to Retrofit the equipment into your truck.  California is BROKE.  Plus CARB is getting ready to require any and all ships that make a port call at any port in CA meet the EPA regs even if they are NOT flagged in the USA.  Going to be fun in court on that one.

edbenton: You are exactly on the point I was trying to make. Compliance will be on a two year cycle, for California ( Since that is the major origin, or destination for the majority of OTR Owner-Operator Trucks, it is a given that in two years their equipment will have to be compliant in California (CARB) in order to operate there.  So in most cases they will need to purchase new trucks by 2012 in order to cross into California, a state that is heavilty reliant on trucks to move goods out of state. As you state, this will be a heck of a fight to be fought in the courts. With out a doube, it will impact each and every citizen in CA, not to mention the rest of us who rely on the goods brought into and transported out of the"Golden State."

 Living hard by the BNSF's Transcon, I am seeing a lot of companies equipment on TOFC cars that I would have never expected to see some several years back, Roadway,Marten, ABF, Fed Ex,(not to forget JB Hunt and Schneider Boxes) to note several recently seen.  I would expect that the Intermodal is going to get really popular as California tightens up their Emission Controls.

Beaulieu, and ed both mention shipping that calls in California Ports to be effected as well. I would suspect that they will move ports of call to other locations ( Lazaro Cardenas, MX. and N.W. Coast Ports as well as Canadian Porfs.) to allow them to evade the government of California's draconian rules.

I'm sure the shake out will be interesting to watch.

I am curious to see what happens in the older diesel markets, where shortline railroads find most of their power. Will they buy retrofit kits or  new Tier Four Compliant locomotives or retrofit older units? Wonder which way will be most cost efficient for their operations? You have to guess that a lot of the really scruffy older diesel units will not last in service.   Should be interesting!   

Here's my understanding of each of the questions from above.

  A.)The 2010 Compliance Rule, is there a time frame mentioned to retrofit existing equipment?

The EPA rules, at a Federal level only state that new equipment built from that date forward have an engine which complies with that level of emissions.  Existing equipment is grandfathered - again at the Federal level.   States have taken it upon themselves to change that.  For instance, with the CA - CARB Law, mentioned above prohibits trucks w/ an engine model year of "older than 2004" into Ports and Intermodal Terminals after 1/1/2010.  In 2013, that upgrades to 2006 and older.  Eventually it upgrades to the 2010 engine.  I don't think that the law calls out other facilities in the state, just ports and intermodal ramps.  http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/porttruck/finaldrayagereg.pdf

They do however have a no-idle law as well, as do many other states.  Here's a summary from ATRI   http://www.atri-online.org/research/results/idling_chart.pdf

  B.)Can existing equipment be retrofitted, successfully?  (b.) To rail and automotive diesels as well?

 Yes, exisitng equipment can be retro-fitted, at least some can, but the cost is about $15K to add the SCR filter.   So if you own a truck that is worth $20K on the used market, due to depressed truck prices and you owe the bank $30K, they're not going to give you $15K to buy and install the filter.

  C.) Is the same requirement for levels of NOx abatement going to be demanded of Rail, and other  heavy diesel (agricultural,construction,industrial) applications as well as trucks and automobiles?

Rail is regulated, but not sure if its under the same rules.   I've seen articles in Trains referencing the RR's having to pull older "smoke belching" diesels out of service in LA and move them elsewhere.  I believe that the State did emissions testing similar to what they do on auto, but did it on the locomotives and some where in violation and had to go.

samfp1943:

edbenton:

  Correct and CARB the California Air Resources Board is mandateing that ALL OTR trucks that even come into CA be 2010 Compliant by IIRC by 2018 so and then meet the future regs 2 years later so basically if your a small O/O or company YOUR SCREWED.  No company will give you the loan to Retrofit the equipment into your truck.  California is BROKE. [snip] 

edbenton: You are exactly on the point I was trying to make. Compliance will be on a two year cycle, for California ( Since that is the major origin, or destination for the majority of OTR Owner-Operator Trucks, it is a given that in two years their equipment will have to be compliant in California (CARB) in order to operate there.  So in most cases they will need to purchase new trucks by 2012 in order to cross into California, a state that is heavilty reliant on trucks to move goods out of state. As you state, this will be a heck of a fight to be fought in the courts. With out a doube, it will impact each and every citizen in CA, not to mention the rest of us who rely on the goods brought into and transported out of the"Golden State."

 Living hard by the BNSF's Transcon, I am seeing a lot of companies equipment on TOFC cars that I would have never expected to see some several years back, Roadway,Marten, ABF, Fed Ex,(not to forget JB Hunt and Schneider Boxes) to note several recently seen.  I would expect that the Intermodal is going to get really popular as California tightens up their Emission Controls. [snip]

A predictable result of this - it seems to me - will be a 'cottage industry' in changing/ swapping and/ or renting CARB-compliant diesel trucks at the California borders to and for those truckers that are going that way, esp. in Nevada.  Drop your non-compliant tractor, swap it for one that is, make the delivery or pick-up, return, and reverse the procedure.  Of course, this will be hardest on the Owner/ Operators who have only 1 tractor, and those who run irregular routes and might want to leave by a different route than the one they came in on; big fleets won't be bothered near as much.

As John G. Kneiling observed many years ago, these kinds of regulations usually tend to 'turf out' the small guys, and concentrate the business into the hands of the big outfits. 

Anybody out there who's interested in the business opportunity of buying a plot of land at the border to set up a truck stop and drop/swap yard, and a small fleet of CARB-compliant tractors to rent out - this may be your opportunity ! 

- Paul North.

One HUGE issue with that.  CARB and the EPA are requiring tighter emmisions on Reefers also so they are going to be fitted with SCR by 2013 IIRC from another website.  Now as to your idea on the rentals.  Will not happen.  Why you ask ever seen the stuff a driver carries plus the parking lot needed.  California has close to 300-400 thousand trucks in and out a WEEK. Do you know of a places near the border that have that much parking.  Also the rental company would be responsible for keeping the trucks CARB and EPA compliant not the guy renting it.  So your idea would fail.  CARB is even requiring the Mexican carriers meet their requirements that tell you something.

As I was saying....California stands on the cliff edge, ready to plunge into the regulatory abyss

Does no pol ever think one of these situations all the way through to the conclusion?

samfp1943:

Does no pol ever think one of these situations all the way through to the conclusion?

Actually it will be when the produce is rotting in the fields the Farmers are in Sacremento with the rotten lettuce throwing it at the CARB members and the Statehouse that they might get the message.  That and when the CHP reports that in the last month they have stopped NO ONE because the Gas Stations are out of Gas the Grocery Stores are out of FOOD and Order has fallen all because some tree hugger thought a truck that got 7 MPG was more polluting that one that gets 5 MPG and produced black smoke when the Computer failed.

The public gets what the public votes for, and they vote for what they want.  It's a democracy even in California, last I looked.

RWM