Prototype information for the modeler

I got a screaming deal on a Broadway Limited 2-8-2 undecorated.  I've painted it Great Northern Glacier Park colors.  I am having a hard time finding a picture of the rear of a coal tender with proper lettering.  Anyone out there have any photos or diagrams that might help out?

Thanks,

Keyton

inhrmswy:

I got a screaming deal on a Broadway Limited 2-8-2 undecorated.  I've painted it Great Northern Glacier Park colors.  I am having a hard time finding a picture of the rear of a coal tender with proper lettering.  Anyone out there have any photos or diagrams that might help out?

Thanks,

Keyton

Keyton,

I've certainly got to question your choice of the phrase "screaming deal"--there's something, I don't know, "uncommitted", about the choice of words. For example, you say you've "painted it Great Northern Glacier Park colors". Really? What I'm getting at is that if you're confident enough to paint the loco, you should have been confident, already, about your lettering choices. But, in answer to your question:

The GN O-3's (that's the Broadway loco) had an oil capacity of 4800 gallons and a water capacity of 10,000 gallons (from a 1952 diagram book). You'll need to know this if you are doing an oil burner. I don't have the coal capacity of this class at hand--they were oil burners in their later years--you'll have to find out when (or if) your particular loco was converted from coal to oil to determine how to handle the coal/oil quandary. The "Glacier Park" scheme was VERY roughly discontinued after WWII. But, in 1952, all O-3's were oil burners.

Now, what you need is a picture of the layout of the lettering of the rear of a typical GN tender from the pre-war years (though it's quite possible that the post-war years would also be included). Then, you just substitute the numbers I mentioned above for those in the picture.

Ah, the picture. There's the rub (what the holy hell's the "rub", anyway?). I think you already know, right? On page 134 of Charles R. Wood's "Great Northern Lines West", there's a photo showing a tender devoid of rear lettering. Wanna go with that?

Other options:

Look at the back of a lot of W&R models--they're pretty accurate, but I don't have any GN ones, or I'd tell you.

The GN RHS is coming out with a book with photos of GN steam. Maybe they'll have something.

Go to the GN Yahoo group and ask them.

Join the GN RHS and amass all the back issues.

Or, perhaps, go with this photo--not really a bad choice:

http://www.uncledavesbrass.com/ORI-GN-484-S2OPEN-GLPK-ER18.jpg

In summary, if you really don't care all that much, just stick some numbers on the back of the tender--who's to know (though there's a big difference between gallons and tons)? If you DO care, settle yourself down to do some REAL RESEARCH.

Sorry that I'm hard on you, Ed

Ed,

Screaming deal means I paid less than 100 bucks for the model on ebay.  I have poured over  the gngoat.org, greatnorthernempire.net, and gnhs websites.  I know that the O-1's had the rectangle tenders originally and loaded 10k gallons of water and 20 tons of coal.  I know that the engine numbers associated with this build were 3000 to 3144 and that the tender number didnt always match the engine.  The glacier park scheme was non standard and varied by the shop that applied it.   Were I home, I could run down to the local hobby shop and pick up the copy of great northern lines west that I have seen sitting on the shelf for years, unfortunately I am not home, Im stuck in dutch harbor alaska.  So a little less scarcasm would be appreciated, thanks anyway.  I am by no means a rivet counter but would at least like to get the lettering in the right position on the tender.

Anyone else care to help out?

 

Excuse me for supplying you the correct numbers for the oil and water capacity for the O-3 tenders.

Excuse me for mentioning that the O-3's tended to oil in their later years.

Excuse me for supplying a source for a photo of the rear of a model of a GN steam loco.

And I'm really sorry you're in Dutch Harbor, Alaska.

And I'm really sorry I'm not "Anyone else".

Ed

inhrmswy:

Ed,

  I know that the engine numbers associated with this build were 3000 to 3144...

 

And, Keyton, what you know would be wrong, since the GN O-3 class was numbered 3200-3208.

Perhaps you should re-think your project.

Ed

If you go to the Broadway Limited website, and go into the section on the 5152 GN Heavy Mikado and click on the link for additional pictures, one of the pictures shows the rear of the tender. It's basically just the engine no. centered in the rear, with the tender water capy center top.

One thing I did to make mine look better was taking a small brush and painting the piping on the boiler black so it contrasted with the green boiler.

 

Keyton,

I apologize for being harsh yesterday.

My 1952 diagram book also states that these tenders had a coal capacity of 16 tons. That number is quite co-incidental, as yesterday my local radio station played Tennessee Earnie Ford's "Sixteen tons". Anyway, it appears that these engines kept their USRA tenders their whole life; I say this because they all still had their original tenders in 1952. Well, sort of. The six O-3's shown each had the following tender numbers:

3200--tender #3208

3201--tender #3205

3203--tender #3204

3204--tender #3200

3207--tender #3206

3208--tender #3202

So, it appears they kept their tender class, not their individual tender. Now, if you're in the mood to keep your engine in the "as delivered" state, I'd recommend going with the "16 tons" and "10,000 gallons". And, of course, the engines were delivered with the "normal" number.

Something also to consider is that they were delivered with their air pumps mounted on the side of the boiler, but the pumps were later moved to the front of the smokebox.

I think we are both finding that it's tough to find a picture of the rear of a tender (just try finding one of the FRONT).

I found a few pictures of the rear of GN tenders:

p 134 of "Lines West"--old picture of #3353--no lettering showing on rear

p 14 of "Great Northern Steam & Electric in Color"--#896--no lettering showing on rear

p 15 of same--#1453--numbers on rear facing headlight and two signs saying "LOOK OUT FOR OVERHEAD WIRES"--no other lettering

p63 of same--appears to be some lettering but I can't read it--it's very fine--it's a big vanderbilt tender

I think it will be tough to come up with "proof", but I think I'd go with no lettering on the back wall of the tender, ESPECIALLY if I was doing the engine in its as-delivered style--the theory being that railroads tended to add lettering over the years--the word "theory" should be noticed.

Ed

It's interesting that these came in two groups, 3200-3203 came via the USRA direct from the builder in 1919. 3204-3208 were originally assigned to the El Paso & SouthWestern, who didn't want them. GN acquired those ones in 1920. They spent most of their time in the area in Minnesota, both running between Duluth/Superior and the Twin Cities, and on the Mesabi Range.

Anyway, until you get evidence to the contrary, I'd assume the BLI decorated GN engine is correct. I belong to the GN historical society and haven't heard anyone complaining there or on any forums that the engine is incorrect.

GN.O3s 3202 and 3204 with coal loads are correct til at least 1946.

The one problem I've had with the BLIs rendition of the 03 is the generator in front of the stack,don't think that's correct for GN. but thats small potatos and easy to correct If need be.

I'm not positive any of the O-3 class engines were ever converted to oil?? The O-6 class were, I think the O-7/O-8s too.

It's hard to say on the generator, railroads made so many changes to USRA engines that it can be hard to tell how they originally looked. BTW since BLI is basing their model on the "as built" USRA engine, it's interesting they haven't offered this mike with the original "full face" goat herald from the 1920's.

On page 438 of Woods Great Northern Railway there is a picture taken in 1935 of 3205 pretty much as built with the full faced goat herald on the tender and side mounted air pumps.

There are also several other 03s shown with oil bunkers installed in their USRA tenders.

To bad there is not better documentation on these locos available.

Yup, all of these engines would have had the "full face" goat herald up until at least 1936 when the new "side face" goat herald was introduced, although some probably went a few years beyond that until getting the new herald.

One problem with information on the O-3 is that they were kind of oddballs, a "non-GN" class with conventional round fireboxes on a railroad that preferred Belpaire fireboxes. I seem to recall reading that they weren't all that popular with GN crews, who thought their own mikes were better. Plus while later mikes like the O-8s were pulling mainline freights thru the Rockies, these engines were in less glamorous service hauling ore trains between the mines and Kelly Lake or pulling local freights in Duluth/Superior and occassionally running down to the Twin Cities.