General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I am considering constructing a new HO scale 50x40 layout in an outbuilding that does not have heat. I was just wondering if anyone has done this and if there were any drawbacks, besides being cold. I reside in NY state and I can tolerate the cold but can the trains? The building is dry and dust free but it does not have any insulation. Feedback appreciated, thanks.

D&HRR:

I am considering constructing a new HO scale 50x40 layout in an outbuilding that does not have heat. I was just wondering if anyone has done this and if there were any drawbacks, besides being cold. I reside in NY state and I can tolerate the cold but can the trains? The building is dry and dust free but it does not have any insulation. Feedback appreciated, thanks.

It's not so much that you or the trains can take the cold but to the radical temperature and humidity swings that will affect the benchwork, hence, trackwork. You live in a climate that is not that much different than here  south of Boston.  You may find that some basic finishing of the building would really pay off in the long run. Even if you can insulate/ moisure barrier and allow some control w/ a dehumidifier and electric heat to take the real chill off, the layout would be much happier and perform much better.

I would use extruded foam as much as possible and maybe even steel stud to minimize the effects that humidity will cause to any wood benchwork. I realize that an all out finishing of this structure would be extremely costly, but you may find that at least doing some minimal work could be done at a much lowered cost.

 It should not be a problem for your engines to run in the cold, but how about your bench work and track? How cold is your cold?

Your wooden bench work may not like the vast temperature difference between winter and summer and you may find your track to be constantly buckling up or even being torn apart. Keeping the difference in temperature under control is more important. You could run a model railroad on the arctic circle - look at my signature!

The obvious answer is yes, you could do that, but I cant see why you are going to invest a lot of money in a layout and build it in a uninsulated room? A few rolls of insulation and some drywall is all you need and if you can do it yourself, the cost will not be so high. A layout in a warm room is more likely to be finished and operated then it would be otherwise.

I agree with the general theme.  You're going to spend many thousands of dollars (yes, you are) building and equipping a layout of this size.  Why not invest a few hundred on basic insulation?

How is the power provided to the building?  Would there be enough to run some space heaters, or perhaps a heat pump?  You would be wise to consider air conditioning in the summer too.  If it turns out that heating in the winter is unrealistic, then the summer may be when you can really use the layout.

Moisture can also be a problem.  If you have a very cold, very dry room, then your own breath is going to add significant moisture to the air.  If you're not careful, this will condense on cold surfaces, like your track and trains.  That's not a good thing at all.

I will chime in as I can be "the voice of experience" on this.....  Short answer, don't!  

Longer answer, as others have already said, spent the time and money to insulate and heat/cool the layout room.  It will be very worth your while.

My first layout as an adult was in "n" scale and was built out in my unheated (separate) garage.  I was told that it was not a very good idea by a good friend who was an avid modeler.  But since I was convinced I knew more than he did.......  Built it during summer break (I was a teacher).  Everything went well, and I had all the track down and much of the, well what I called scenery in place.  Then after school started back up, I didn't get out there until Holiday Break in December.  What a mess (no offense Fergie)!  Track had buckled, scenery had pulled apart, and the benchwork was falling apart.  That layout got pulled apart and what little could be salvaged (some track, the loco and a couple cars I had) got put into storage. 

My current layout (HO) is in my basement in 2 rooms that are 1. heated (put in a gas heater - vented) and 2. is kept at a constant 45% to 55% humidity.  I have no problems with it.

Good luck on your layout!

73

 In addition to the physical problems with the layout itself, an unheated room will be no fun to operate in, so your railroad will be idle for several months a year.

My wood bench work suffers greatly from lack of heat/AC here in Tn. Condensation in the winter is a killer! No fun running trains when you can see your breath or sweat is dripping in your eyes.

Spend the time and money and fix up the building first. There are units called PTAC's (pass through air conditioners.) These are the units you see in hotel rooms. AC/Heat Pump and aux heating strips. They cost about $700 and are VERY efficient. The climate control will be a fraction of what your large layout will cost.

Take this from a guy that regrets not doing the heat/cool/insulation thing first!

http://www.lodgemart.com/ptacs.html

MisterBeasley:

Moisture can also be a problem.  If you have a very cold, very dry room, then your own breath is going to add significant moisture to the air.  If you're not careful, this will condense on cold surfaces, like your track and trains.

 And POWER SUPPLIES. I live in northern NY and during the winter extra caution is used when I or my club moves mrr equipment, especially loco's and transformers, outdoors. The reason is when you move a power supply (DCC command station/ DC powerpack) or a locomotive outdoors in the winter condensation occurs, often inside the unit on the electrical components. When I bring a piece of equipment in from outside in the winter, or receive something that has been in an unheated place (say, off the UPS truck) I let it sit overnight to make sure the moisture is gone before I but electricity to it. You may not have a problem with this because everything is outdoors all the time but be careful.

Finally how often are you going to use the layout if it is unheated in the winter? And if you plan on having operating sessions, how many operators are going to be willing to help you run your layout if they have to wear wool mittens and snow boots to keep from freezing?

Overall I'd say not a good idea.

My thoughts, your decisions,

Jamie   

I agree with all of those that posted before . I would like to add to their comments. When you insulate , install insulation (fiberglass ) with a vapor barrier attached. Kraft paper . Not foil The paper side should always face the interior of the room or you might say the side of the room that is being conditioned. Second buy the thickeness that fits with in the wall cavity. Fiberglass does not have any "insulation" value in of itself. However what it does do is" trap air " . This is important. While you do not want air to flow thru your building you do want to slow it down to a migration (not totally stop) thru the wall and this is the function of insulation. Third staple the edges to the inside of the stud if you plan to install drywall. This allows you to glue the drywall directly to the stud. If you do not plan to "finish the walls" then staple the edges over the face of the stud. Lastly - the best tool to cut insulation with is an old butcher knife. Sharpened of course with a long blade . The length of the blade helps to compress the insulation in front of the cutting part (tip) and makes a nice clean cut. PS do NOT cover the inside or exterior with plastic. With out air flow migration thru the building wall cavity , air will condensate on the stud side of the plastic and cause condensation/water problems --- which eventually leads to mold and rot. It drives me Crazy when I see goof ball home improvment shows that recommend plastic on a building -- worse thing you can do ---

I would also agree with the others.  I have lived in Kansas City since 1969, and the swings in temps and humidity can be killers.  My basement is warm/cool depending on the season.  It is dry, maintains even humidity as does the rest of the house, and I just don't have problems, with operations, with roadbed, benchwork, structures, scenery and on and on.

I would urge you not to make a mistake you will regret later.

Bob

One problem I had - in a heated and air conditioned basement - was the roadbed (upsom board) would shrink and expand during the year (especially the first year it was installed - it seemed to settle down after that). It caused kinks in the track that were pretty bad. I can't imagine if it had gone thru huge swings in heat and humidity like you're contemplating.

I'd say if you can't heat / AC the building, don't build it. Use the space to put in a 1:29 garden railroad.

 i think your eyes may be bigger than your stomach.  have you ever worked on a layout anywhere near this size before?   i am working in a huge basement and my layout is less than half the size you are talking about and it seems gigantic.  i would have probably been happy with half this much and enjoyed the hobby all the same.

  are you contemplating doing this by yourself?  do you have other model railroaders that would be helpful with the construction?  i am what they call a lone wolf, (probably because of my caustic personality) and after almost 10 years, i am still laying track.

  you might consider partitioning off part of the space and get that area semi finished with some decent lights, heat and cooling.  you can always expand later.  this sounds like a long term project and as you get older you will appreciate creature comforts a lot more than you do now.

  your enthusiasm to get trains running might make it seem like the environment you work in is not so important but as time goes by i bet your attitude will change.

  seems a bit like duck hunting to me,  i never could see the point in sitting around in a shack with a wet dog during miserable weather and calling it fun.   maybe that was all part of the outdoors experience that some folks enjoy but model railroading in a less than completely comfortable environment?  nah, i don't think so.

grizlump

I agree with all the rest. The track will suffer as well as you.

  Thanks for all the input, I am going to finish the building off before any layout construction begins. I am in no real hurry, I have a very large layout now that takes up 3 spare rooms and it has taken me years and years to get as far as I am.

  Why build a new one?? There are many things I want to change, which is the case for most of us and I would like to have more of an open space to work with. I like long straights and large yards and they will come in time. I am going to start the finish work on the building this fall and if it takes a year or two then thats what it will be.

   I dont work alone on the trains, there is a small group of us that have the same interests so it makes it fun. Isnt that whats its all about?? Enjoy!