General Discussion (Model Railroader)

 I've tried to stay out of this one, saying it just doesn't apply to me.  I'm not buying anything bigger than a 2-8-0, not at current prices and a hobby budget of $40/month.

The optimist in me likes to think that sales of these monster engines will encourage manufacturers to try smaller engines and earlier eras.  But outside of Bachmann, I'm slowly being convinced that that will never happen.  As has been pointed out, the average buyer of these monsters is buying it for the "cool" factor, - either display running or display period.  It's not going to get used in an everyday train on the average layout.  I would define that as collecting but many take umbrage at the label.  Doesn't matter the reason why they are bought, the fact is the large locomotives sell.

I believe that there is sufficient market for both types of locomotives.  Harkening back to the reasonably-priced brass era, both the articulateds and the 2-8-0s sold well.  The AT&SF 2-8-0 was PFM's all time sales leader, according to Bill Ryan (founder of PFM).  The Ma & Pa 2-8-0 had to be close behind based on the number I see on consignment shelves.

In an ideal world, the smaller engines - from 0-4-0s and 4-4-0s to 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s would dominate the market.  It isn't and it won't happen because the hobby (however defined) is as much emotional as it is logical.  Again, I can only hope that one day smaller and earlier steam will get some more manufacturing attention.

yours in having fun

Fred W

fwright:

 Harkening back to the reasonably-priced brass era, both the articulateds and the 2-8-0s sold well.  The AT&SF 2-8-0 was PFM's all time sales leader, according to Bill Ryan (founder of PFM).  The Ma & Pa 2-8-0 had to be close behind based on the number I see on consignment shelves.

In point of fact, Fred, in the glory days of brass small steam far, far out sold big articulated monsters. As you indicate, the PFM Santa Fe 2-8-0 was probably the best seller of all time, with the PFM UP 2-8-0 right behind. Each model sold between 3,000 and 5,000 units over the years! Likewise, I believe that the model with the single largest individual run may have been WMC's UP 4-4-2 Atlantic, with nearly 1600 units. Collectors back in the day were much more descriminating about choosing a range of models reflecting a given road's motive power. The "gee wiz" collectors are a more recent phenomenon.

CNJ831

John,
I've been in the hobby "seriously" for 20 years.  Earlier still, I grew up with an HO layout in my basement because my father has been in the hobby since just after WWII and switched over to HO scale around 1958-63.  How many decades does one have to be in the hobby before one cannot be dismissed as some kind of newbie?  What I'm saying here is that just because I disagree with you doesn't make me ignorant.  You and I see the same things and come to different conclusions.  That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, just that we disagree.  You'd be a lot more pleasant to deal with if you realized that.

For example, you said, "It is not simply about owning and running miniature trains."  Now there I strongly disagree.  I believe that those who own and run minature trains are model railroaders because they are modeling a railroad.  That belief doesn't make me some kind of know-nothing newbie.

Now, if you wanted to change your labeling from "real model railroader" to "complete model railroader", then we would have no argument.  A "complete model railroader" would do everything, from building models to running them on a well-done layout; basically everything you have defined above.  Or you could call them "master model railroaders" to use the NMRA's term.  Again, I'd have no argument.  But when you start pointing fingers at people and telling them they aren't "real model railroaders" because they don't do what you want them to do, that just causes fights.  Keeping today's date in mind, it would be like telling people they aren't "real Americans" just because they don't do things your way.

IRT model railroading on a simulator...of course it's not considered "classic model railroading".  It's not old enough to be considered "classic".  But building a world on the PC and making accurate computer models of equipment can take just as much time, effort and research as making a real-world model of it.  IOW, yes, I consider TrainSim-folks to be model railroaders, too.  To me, it doesn't make a whit of difference what medium a person uses to recreate railroads.  Wood, metal, plastic, electrons...it makes no difference to me.

You then asked "Why then would it be if doing so on just totally unscenicked bare boards?"  I'll tell you: because these "Plywood Pacifics" or whatever you want to call them are modeling a railroad...they just aren't doing it that well.  For example, I have a good sized layout (25'x50') that I run Operations on.  I don't have a lick of scenery on it other than the 30 building kits that I have built (most Walthers kits).  I'd like to have scenery, but quite frankly I have next to no experience in making any.  For the moment I'd rather spend my limited hobby dollar on buying & painting my NH models vs. buying hydrocal, screening, ballast, detail parts, etc.  I'll be the first to acknowledge that my layout isn't very good because it's so bare, and that I am not any kind of "master model railroader" who thinks he's in the same category with the true masters of the craft.  But to say I'm not a "real model railroader" because of it?  I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

It's funny you mention that some of the small steam power is too old.  We've got a member on this forum who keeps complaining that they are too new and what a hassle it is to backdate them to actual turn-of-the-century appearance.  BTW, what about the Spectrum 4-4-0 with the steel cab?  It's superheated, at least.

I do agree that there is a lot of super-huge steam power coming out year after year, and that it is difficult to assemble an accurate steam roster that represents an entire RR's real roster.  However, I question how many people are actually interested in modeling a complete loco roster, even in proportion.  RR's had a lot of small steam to run the inumberable local freights and yards that RR's had back in the steam days, plus commuter trains if you were close to a big city.  How many model railroaders are going to be able to model that many freight yards and that many local freights or commuter trains? 

About the brass...okay, allow me to rephrase my point.  How about the rise of BLI, et al., put the nail in the coffin of the brass importers?  My point was that why would anyone buy a brass model when a better running, equally accurate, and much less expensive plastic model is available?  Well, other than the true brass collectors.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

Rather than comment again on things I have commented on dozens of times, I will simply remind any manufacturers who might be reading that if they want my money they need to AVOID:

Anything with a rigid wheel base longer than 20 scale feet.

Anything that ran on the PRR.

Anything that has already been done by multiple manufacturers in the last 10 years.

Anything that costs over $400.00

I will consider locos that are:

Medium in size. Currently desired wheel arangements include: 4-4-2, 4-6-2, 2-8-2, 4-6-0 

Any prototype as long as its features are not highly unique (like those of the PRR).

Preferably offered without sound and DCC, OR have low enough prices that the cost of those features are not a factor.

Any loco meeting this qualifications and having suitable running performance would likely be purchased in quantities of 2-4 of each.

Specific recommendations include:

Any/all Harriman locos, DT&I 800 class 2-8-2, USRA Heavy 4-6-2, C&NW 4-4-2, Any/all Reading or CNJ camelbacks, modern classes of B&O 4-6-0, just to name a few.

Sheldon

You should notice that the Q2 is part of the Hybrid line. I look at this line as a replacement for the less exspensive brass that we used to see like Sunset's "prestige" line that produced a number of nice brass engines that were cheap in terms of brass prices. I will be getting one of these for my layout to run. The hybrid line seems aimed at engine that will have a lower manufacturing run, but supply engines that modelers would not otherwise see.

There have been a number of nice smaller steam engines. The Bachmann 2-10-0, 2-8-0, 4-4-0, and 4-6-0 come to mind. The biggest problems with smaller steam is finding a prototype that will appeal to a number of modelers. The USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 are prime examples. Hopefully we will see UP and PRR 2-8-0's, as both the railroads have a large following.

The one thing I don't understand is the anger. There have been many engines produced that don't fit my layout in terms of era or railroad. However, that is just the nature of the game. I would love a nice Milwaukee Road Little Joe to pull my Walthers Hiawatha set, but no luck. We all have certain criteria an engine has to meet for us to spend the money. The Q2 may not meet your criteria, but then again the Bachmann 4-6-0 doesn't meet mine. The key is that we have more high quality engines then we ever did before. I can remember the 1980's and early 1990's, when all you had was engine that were poorly made and did not have the detail.

Eric

elauterbach:

The one thing I don't understand is the anger.

I don't know that anger is the right word, but frustration surely is.

And it comes from one simple fact - the money that tooled up the third Big Boy, the forth PRR K4, the third GS 4, etc, etc, could have all gone into some locos for which the manufacturer would have had no competition.

I get that people like big steam - to a limit so do I, but this sillyness of eveybody making the same models, and all of them are same giant "collector" pieces is just crazy.

OK, now we are on to some new "giants", that's better than the same ones over and over, but some variety in size would be nice.

Sheldon

elauterbach:

You should notice that the Q2 is part of the Hybrid line. I look at this line as a replacement for the less exspensive brass that we used to see like Sunset's "prestige" line that produced a number of nice brass engines that were cheap in terms of brass prices. I will be getting one of these for my layout to run. The hybrid line seems aimed at engine that will have a lower manufacturing run, but supply engines that modelers would not otherwise see.

Exactly. Very well stated.

Paul3:

IRT model railroading on a simulator...of course it's not considered "classic model railroading".  It's not old enough to be considered "classic".  But building a world on the PC and making accurate computer models of equipment can take just as much time, effort and research as making a real-world model of it.  IOW, yes, I consider TrainSim-folks to be model railroaders, too.  To me, it doesn't make a whit of difference what medium a person uses to recreate railroads.  Wood, metal, plastic, electrons...it makes no difference to me.

I could argue here that there is a difference, or rather distinction, between the various forms of Model Railroading. It's just that I do not see a hierarchical development between them. If there is/was no difference the very concept of 'model railroads' would be non existent. Nor would it be any different from playing with stones or such. I don't see why his concern for 'Real' modern railroading is an issue anyways. I see that rhetoric as more purist in approach while others have a different ( dang. There's that word again) way of approaching it. Hence, overall, the merry go round of dialog-------

Hi all I was emailing BLI for months trying to get them to make it. I sent pictures and every thing. I did a survey on 3 websites on how may people want a Q2 and I got about 150 replys and I emailed the survey to Broadway limited after the signing just about stopped. I got an email back and they said there talking and look what I helped do. When they told me that other people also emailed them they said maybe instead of no. And look now we got it. Im gonna get a dt402d and a Ur92 so i can run all functions. Like the auto pilot. I also emailed factory direct trains for there price and they say theyll put it on next week and there price soon. There gonna email me again about something im hoping about price
Im gonna buy at least 2 at the most 4

Adam Pomeranz

cointrain:

Hi all I was emailing BLI for months trying to get them to make it. I sent pictures and every thing. I did a survey on 3 websites on how may people want a Q2 and I got about 150 replys and I emailed the survey to Broadway limited after the signing just about stopped. I got an email back and they said there talking and look what I helped do. When they told me that other people also emailed them they said maybe instead of no. And look now we got it. Im gonna get a dt402d and a Ur92 so i can run all functions. Like the auto pilot. I also emailed factory direct trains for there price and they say theyll put it on next week and there price soon. There gonna email me again about something im hoping about price
Im gonna buy at least 2 at the most 4

Adam Pomeranz

Ah, the plot thickens. There's a powerful cult out there, this guy is part of it and he and the cult need to be stopped before any more damage is done.

Either that or we have to form an even more powerful cult that will overwhelm BLI with a flood of demands for Harriman engines that is of Biblical proportions. We'll give BLI a total of 40 days and 40 nights to get with the program. After that, they'd better either be able to tread water for an awfully long time or be well supplied with life vests.

Can I hear an AMEN, brethren and sistern? 

Andre

andrechapelon:

Either that or we have to form an even more powerful cult that will overwhelm BLI with a flood of demands for Harriman engines that is of Biblical proportions. We'll give BLI a total of 40 days and 40 nights to get with the program. After that, they'd better either be able to tread water for an awfully long time or be well supplied with life vests.

Can I hear an AMEN, brethren and sistern? 

Amen Bro!!!

I have done my part...as I said earlier.  I have pointedly asked Matt Williamson and team to start feeding the rest of the USA modelling world.  No more UP/Pennsy/NYC steamers for the foreseeable future.  2012 at least!

Please!!

blownout cylinder:

andrechapelon:

Either that or we have to form an even more powerful cult that will overwhelm BLI with a flood of demands for Harriman engines that is of Biblical proportions. We'll give BLI a total of 40 days and 40 nights to get with the program. After that, they'd better either be able to tread water for an awfully long time or be well supplied with life vests.

Can I hear an AMEN, brethren and sistern? 

Amen Bro!!!

cool

Adam

selector:

This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year!  That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer ever produced.  First they announce that they will make the UP 9000 series 4-12-2 engines, and now this!?

I guess I'll have to start flippin' burgers.

-Crandell

Crandell

I have been out chasing the 4449 out of Portland the last two days and have not seen the Q2 announcement.  This probably means MTH will announce it also within a week or two.   I for one will get the Q2 since I have a Westside Q2, but I don't install sound or DCC into standard brass locomotives.  The pickup on one side of the locomotive and one side of the tender of the old brass does not make for good DCC operation.

 Good to hear they are bringing it out.  hope they realize the Q2 tender is not the same as the J1 and not use the same shell.  

CZ

cointrain:

Hi all I was emailing BLI for months trying to get them to make it. I sent pictures and every thing. I did a survey on 3 websites on how may people want a Q2 and I got about 150 replys and I emailed the survey to Broadway limited after the signing just about stopped. I got an email back and they said there talking and look what I helped do. When they told me that other people also emailed them they said maybe instead of no. And look now we got it. Im gonna get a dt402d and a Ur92 so i can run all functions. Like the auto pilot. I also emailed factory direct trains for there price and they say theyll put it on next week and there price soon. There gonna email me again about something im hoping about price
Im gonna buy at least 2 at the most 4

Adam Pomeranz