General Discussion (Model Railroader)

GTX765,
I totally agree with your post.  I tend to believe in a very wide interpretation of what makes someone a model railroader.  An armchair model railroader is still a model railroader in my book.  The usual reply to that from the other side is that just because you read a magazine about NASA doesn't make you an astronaut.  My reply to that would be that model railroading is not a profession, it's a hobby, and it's up to each individual to determine how much time or money one spends on his or her hobby.

At any rate, you have to realize one important thing...  This hobby is no different from any other.  There are elitists in every human endeavour.  Guns, cars, knitting, cameras, computers, gardening, doll houses, basket weaving, quilting, model rocketry, R/C, etc.  Why should model railroading be any different?  We just have to recognize elitists when we encounter them, and either take their "advice" or ignore it as we feel like it.  The one thing you can't do is let it bother you.

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
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Paul, not in any way wishing to insult you but much of your long post's expressed opinions reflect your relative short duration in the hobby and lack of historical perspective. This probably is in large part why you fail to see the situation clearly. I'll try to address some of your misstatements in a limited space below.

With regard to who is a "real" model railroader, let me point out that from its inception, the adult hobby of model railroading has universally been regarded as a craftsman's hobby. It is not simply about owning and running miniature trains. Neither is it about collecting items. That too is a different pursuit, which in model trains has generally been associated with brass models, or antique tinplate. Neither approach makes you a "model railroader". Likewise, simply running store-bought trains on a board decorated crudely with store-bought pre-assembled structures, trees and other details, is what kids did in the 40's and 50's and that wasn't regarded as model railroading either. Those guys were referred to as having a layout, not being model railroaders.

Today, unfortunately, there is a growing faction in the hobby that doesn't wish to recognize that skills and talent, learned or otherwise, are prerequisites in model railroading. That outlook split the hobby once already fifty years ago and it may do so again.

Concerning "operators", most I know have fully scenicked layouts, not Dave Barrow's track on bare boards and are thus in the craftsman category. Playing with trains on a computer is not regarded as any form of classic model railroading. Why then would it be if doing so on just totally unscenicked bare boards?

Let's look at the "available" small steam locomotives again. Yes, there is the Spectrum 2-8-0. It's fine, as are the two smaller BLI engines. But the Spectrum 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 , plus the Roundhouse 4-4-0, 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 , are examples of turn of the last century designs, not representative of common steam motive power just before and during the transition era, no matter what claims are made. The Horizon steam engines never were all that good and most experienced modelers I know avoid them. IHC, while often fairly good runners, are highly inaccurate.

Now compare that to the steady run of monster, astronomically priced, new examples which appear at least twice a year now. Most are one road specific and not believably adaptable to any others. It's quite difficult to assemble a reasonable roster of modest, late-steam-era, engines today and very few of the affordable ones are suitable as kitbash fodder.

With regard to the decline of brass, it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the rise of BLI, or any other modern plastic loco manufacturer. The decline of brass began back in the mid 1980's as prices outstripped the ability of the average hobbyist to pay. By the time BLI et al. came on the scene, the interest in brass had dwindled to a tiny niche element in the hobby.

CNJ831  

A couple of points - first, I'm reliably informed that this loco is rigid, with a lot of lateral motion. I'd assume the same will apply for the BLI 4-12-2 when it comes out.

Second, from what I'm told, the cost of producing say, a 2-10-0 isn't too different to producing a 2-8-0 or 2-6-0, the problem being that the perception is that the loco should be proportionally cheaper. This has tended to make manufacturers nervous about making smaller locos. The same applies for "boring" "everyday" locos, versus the large locos that have been produced. The PCM I1sa has to an extent changed that perception - it was a loco needed in large enough quantities by enough PRR modelers that it sold out very quickly, and so I think BLI have been encouraged that more utilitarian locos can be produced.

That the hobby is divided in unquestioned, but I hope few of us in the overarching whole, called "The Hobby" won't let these arcane divisions stand in the way of cameraderie, mutual respect, and admiration for the interests and abilities that we all bring, and for what we all have in common...a healthy affection and interest for railroads and what they do.

I understand the differences as John lays them out, and I don't disagree.  Even though I am very new to "The Hobby", I do see clearly that many long-time members are dedicated purists who strive to fabricate much of what they place in dioramas or on layouts.  Their interest is in the measuring and shaping of raw materials to resemble carefully scaled and recognizable items that are remarkably like miniature versions of the larger prototype.

At the same time, there are the operators.  These are guys who may dabble in the aforementionted, or maybe a lot of it, but they also like mimicking what railroads do on their scale layouts.  It would be reasonable to suspect that some of them would be more interested in operations than in the scale modelling, the building, and would be pleased to have something close that comes ready to run.

Then there are guys like me who works like heck to erect something passably like a wooden trestle and calls that a milestone.  But he is darned glad he doesn't have to cut and bend plastic and brass and fit motors and gears together to get a locomotive that he needs.  Operations with that RTR whatsit is another thing altogether.  Some of the non-craftsman types might do more operations that anything, and be happy with the Plywood Pacific.

I have left messages with BLI asking them to start helping those who are not Pennsy/NYC/UP/N&W/ATSF fans and who need Pacifics, Consolidations, Mastodons, and others from different roads.  I would be happier knowing that they agreed and that at least a few of you disappointed fellows who could really use a break (and some nice RTR engines) would soon find relief.

-Crandell

Eddie_walters:

first, I'm reliably informed that this loco is rigid, with a lot of lateral motion. I'd assume the same will apply for the BLI 4-12-2 when it comes out.

There would then be enough laterality to the wheelsets to make for a good overhang(!). Hence---when laying track--that is, if you are doubling track--around a turn make sure you drop one curve more than the 2" standard from the top curve. The parallel would be about the same but wider distance apart--

Well, I think it's easy to see what my road of interest is. My comments on several aspects of this thread are:

I have indeed been "pricing" Q2 models on ebay for a few years, the cheapest and best deals seem to be WSM can motor units that sometimes go for about $350. If they run like my N2 2-10-2 ($200 not running with N6b caboose- repaired in 45 minutes), they won't need remotored. Of course, add the cost of Quantum/Tsunami/Loksound, and the labor, plus factor the single rail pickup, and larger radius required, not to mention painting, and that BLI price starts to look pretty good.

I would, however MUCH preffer to purchase three or four (or even five or six) H class 2-8-0 models of the same quality. I could actually USE those on my layout, for scheduled trains that spend time operating, not just as run through power.

I guess I'm placing myself in both collector AND modeller categories. Read my post and form your own opinion, though.

My current "layout" is 15x19. I think that quallifies as "medium". I have 24" minimum radii with "guestimate" easments on a doubletrack main with 2" centers, which become 2.5 inch on the curves, because I keep both tracks 24" R. my trackplan could be considered an operational display loop. It is continuous run, but set up for point to point.I have a 27 car capacity yard, a 20 car capacity yard, one 8 car capacity passing siding each direction, 7 industries (none in yards), and an interchange. I use a car card and waybill system. I also sometimes just run a train in each direction and watch.

My largest engines are the BLI J1 and T1. I have "just run" both at the same time in opposing directions. No problems on curves.

Even at 15x 19 that J does look silly with only 10 or 12 cars. Any more and the train takes up 2 walls.

Typical train length is about 6-9. Hmm, what engine would be a good choice...I know a 2-8-0!!

Lat year I took a BLI 2-8-2, and (gasp) cut off the trailing truck, and stuck on an MDC PRR boiler. Guess what? It came out pretty good. This year, I'm approaching it from the other end. I bought an ebay Gem H10, and I'm putting in a can motor and DCC/sound. So far it's a "wash" for what you end up with for the time and money. The Gem still looks better, the BLI still runs better. I figure I've got about $300 and 40 hours in each of them. After I get three or four done, BLI or MTH will probably release one. Honestly I think I would rather just pay the $300 and get it RTR. I have also built Bowser L1, K4 and B6 models. The L1 is going to get a BLI 2-8-2 running gear transplant (even after me hand assembling the valve gear). Nothing beats both rail pickup from the drivers!

My wife and I are looking to buy a new house in the near future. We are eyeing a foreclosure ;). One thing high on the list is the ability to add on to the existing garage (I have a classic car hobby, too), and build my dream 24x30 layout depicting Xenia Ohio and the Springfield Branch and the line to Dayton on the upper level, and "display loop" and staging representing Columbus and Cincinatti on the lower.

One other problem no one has mentioned is that BLI and MTH are duplicating efforts. I'm also an N&W fan, but come on, a THIRD J class offering? I thought the MTH K4 was a mistake, but the J is just nuts. Didn't they also duplicate an NYC engine? If MTH would have made those H10 2-8-0's instead.......

BTW I'm not made of money, either. I'm just extremely efficient with a knack for finding good deals, and have good budgeting skills.

If MTH can sell Centipedes, Passenger Sharks, H10's P5a(m)s, Little Joes, EF-3, etc to O scalers (colletors or whatever), they can probably sell those same models in HO, or we should at least let them  try.

1948PRR:

One other problem no one has mentioned is that BLI and MTH are duplicating efforts. I'm also an N&W fan, but come on, a THIRD J class offering? I thought the MTH K4 was a mistake, but the J is just nuts. Didn't they also duplicate an NYC engine? If MTH would have made those H10 2-8-0's instead

The economics alone in this scenario is crazy but there it is---there have been previous threads on this topic that did discuss the duplication. My thinking is that this is another fine way of doing cut throat business----who makes a better 2-12-2 than who?----one that was articulated at the front hence causing a boiler overhang WWAAAAAAAAYY over here---or a rigid frame that has a potential for lateral overhang? The things you mentioned where the ones that got them into certain 'Legal' issues too.

And both made by the same manufacturer? As in, more lawsuits anyone?

1948PRR:

One other problem no one has mentioned is that BLI and MTH are duplicating efforts. I'm also an N&W fan, but come on, a THIRD J class offering? I thought the MTH K4 was a mistake, but the J is just nuts. Didn't they also duplicate an NYC engine? If MTH would have made those H10 2-8-0's instead.......

Thats the thing though, you are right the broadway J's are beautiful engines and excellent runners, but these are relatively scarce now. Nearly all the hobby shops within 100 miles in my area don't have them anymore, much less the 'in service' type which MTH is now for the most part accurately representing. And the bachmann J just doesn't match up, the stripe's color is all wrong, extremely light model, lacking in powerful headlight, just not my thing. MTH releases the first die cast J in HO, along with operational class lights, which are revolutionary for HO, plus sound, the only problem is the DCS. Other than that, the thing looks like a winner, either another run of J's would be needed from BLI, possibly in Blue Line, or paragon 2, but from what I've heard, this seems unlikely . So MTH made the right choice in choosing this engine. Its popular, certainly not obscure, it fits most of our needs. Some people have complained about the length of the draw bar, but for operational purposes, I am beginning to think I can live with this. Its really not that big of a deal. Believe me, I've tried running some broadways with the tender hitch on the second or even first hole, going around even 30" radius track just doesn't cut it. In my opinion, sometimes compromises have to be made, at least for me. Just sharing my thoughts, you have a right to your opinion as well.

However, the problems I have with both BLI paragon2 and MTH is the smoke, but hey I can just turn it off if I don't like it. If BLI is worried about money, they shouldn't be. Modelers (and collectors like myself) find fake smoke to be terrible. I used the smoke fluid on lionels before, after a few days I hated it. Never used it again. What good is smoke for if all it does is leave this black tar residue on the track, and it made my allergies act up reall bad too. At my LHS they test ran for me a mth k4, showing me the smoke, the synchronized chuff sounded and looked really cool when the smoke came out at appropriate intervals, but within 30 seconds I started to cover my nose and we all laughed. The LHS owners hate HO engines that smoke, they think this new addition is a terrible idea, but apparently a few minority customers like these things.

That Broadway is copying MTH in regards to synchronized chuff and smoke for financial reasons/competition, hey cool I guess, but I don't think many HO people will want these features. First I thought it would be cool, now I hate it. No offence to anyone who feels differently. Paragon 2 featuring smoke units is very disappointing to me. And whats with all these other gimmicks that come with the new Paragon 2 diesels? Sound fully equipped barn sounds, industrial steam sounds, Come on, whats up with this? If this is the future of model railroading, then I better hurry up and collect any vintage stuff I can find.

I will stick with paragon, blueline, and the brass hybrids, I think at this point. The exception is of course the MTH class J with the set of Powhatan Arrow cars. Unless of course I can actually find the rivarossi set somewhere...(yeah right). Will Rapido expand their Norfolk passenger cars? Fine cars but what good are they without the set?

Oh, and by the way as to the MTH K4, I agree, for the price they want, that engine is indeed a mistake, again all these gimmicks (smoke, crew talk), why? Why not focus on correctly operating marker lamps and class lights, or why not at least put jewels in place of operating lights, the Roundhouse 2-6-0 mogul  had the green jewels and looked maginificient for a very reasonable price. I love that train, but they are virtually all gone now. I missed my chance to buy it..

As far as the nyc duplicate MTH is doing, that was another poor choice in my opinion. The BLI hybrid looks ten times better.

I really think BLI should focuse on hybrids instead of paragon 2.

Sorry, long post.....again, 

I think most of the frustration on this board should be directed towards the paragon 2 line (rather than the brass hybrid line)  for releasing such lame sound effects (again...farm animals?), its like this modern diesel has sounds simulating cows living in it, (that really was my first impression), on such common modern diesels that are heinously overpriced. Its outrageous and I think all of us can agree, we shouldn't stand for it.

1948PRR:

My largest engines are the BLI J1 and T1. I have "just run" both at the same time in opposing directions. No problems on curves.

Even at 15x 19 that J does look silly with only 10 or 12 cars. Any more and the train takes up 2 walls.

Sorry, I forgot you said this. You make a valid point, I think that it sums up a lot of the opposition's greivances with BLI. They don't have the space to run these engines in prototypical railroad. I am in the same situation, the difference is, I don't mind it. I run about 15 cars max. behind my J1, I love it, even though it makes no sense. Of course maybe later in life after saving these engines, I can run them in more space. Detailed engines and simple operation is what makes it for me. After talking to my brother some more, I began to change my mind, scenery will take a back seat for now.

We all have our dream layouts, but what I have right now is good enough for me. However, others obviously feel differently on here, and thats fine.

CNJ831:

selector:

This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year!  That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced.  First they announce that they will make the UP 9000 series 4-12-2 engines, and now this!?

Yet another example that, as I've pointed out before, the collector faction in model railroading and not the actual modelers, is what today is driving the manufacturers. If built to true scale and as a non-articulated just as the real Q2 was, the model will likely require track radii well in excess of 48" to operate (maybe 60"!). How many HO layouts have you every seen, or even heard of, with such specs? Don't expect to see many small, quality steamers in the future, that's clearly not where the market is going. The future is in making shelf queens. How's about a Pennsy S-1 next?

CNJ831

CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler?  The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby.

 Then the PRR fans will be jumping for joy over this Q2 for sure.

Now then..

 I agree that Q2 will look mighty silly going round a 22" radius..However,that seems to be the normal curvature for none Godzilla size basement layouts but,again that's like looking at a large mural with tunnel vision..How about the thousands of club members that buys this locomotive for club use?

 Never forget the "cool,I want one" factor either..

I am a little slow on the switch this morning.

I learned about this item last night on the Broadway Webpage.

Im not going to pay the price and get one of these engines.I already have enough engines and prefer to spend the money on more important things.

In about a year when FDT starts to blow these things out for 200 bux call me and I might get a look.

Sadly I have no real interest in these monsters. BLI has done everything right and apparently made a engine the way I like to see them built.

The reason for my non interest is simple. There needs to be a market for smaller more common engines. Everyone is too much on one eastern road or one western road at the expense of so many other wonderful roads and thier engines.

To be blunt, if I see another engine being offered that is requiring 34 inches and number 10 switches to look and operate well and pull only 110 car trains that are longer than the house Im going to puke. And after the clean up, then get angry.

It's not so much the money. I retired about 40K in medical bills this year fixing broken stuff in life. 600 dollars is chump change. But better to have it directed at something useful than another monster that will be tossed onto the clearance and blowout rack in 18 months or less.

I feel that the hobby needs to accomodate those who are unemployed and possibly fighting to regain thier cash flow in a time of trouble and economic challenges. They are definately NOT going to spend 600 dollars on one engine. No way. Not in any meaningful numbers to count. They might get a IHC steamer and call it good enough first.

BRAKIE:

 

CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler?  The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby.

This is precisely the collector factor. Since the collector does go on raw emotion---"Look at the neato train!!!"---the collector is a VERY LARGE component in this whole shmozzel!! I'm not so sure the discipline part would work either---or was that a joke? I'm not so sure either that it was always a free style hobby---maybe for some but not always free style either way----

BRAKIE:

How about the thousands of club members that buys this locomotive for club use?

Are you sure there are or rather will be that large a number of members who will buy that large a locomotive for "club use?" It could just as well be a collector using the club as an exccuse too. Because it has been seen up here a few times----guy never used it at the club because he found out the turnouts were 6 and 8----and he needed 10.

BRAKIE:

 Never forget the "cool,I want one" factor either..

Which already was mentioned----heeheehee

BRAKIE:

CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler?  The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby.

 

Honest, Brakie, I don't have any blinders on.

I'll freely admit that many newer hobbyists and even some of the oldtimers, firmly believe that our hobby is absolutely without rules, regulations, or disciplines to be followed. However, that's really not true.

Just try submitting an article for publication written about a Plywood Pacific, a layout regularly running those SD90MACs along side 10-wheelers, or having towns and cities consisting of plopped-down, RTR structures and such and see if it's accepted by any of the magazines today. I can save everyone time by telling folks it simply won't happen. The best you're likely to get is a condescending smile and a rejection letter. To be acceptable, things in our hobby must conform to certain rules and standards. Simply put, the magazines understand that the hobby does have rules, even if the magazine editors don't wish to acknowledge this openly. In fact, the magazines themselves largely exist to show the reader the various "right" ways of doing things, like creating realistic scenery, accurate locomotives and detailed rolling stock. It's by no means an "anything is acceptable"  hobby. 

CNJ831 

GTX765:

If only the so called real model railroaders were involved in this hobby then most of the companies making this stuff would be gone by now.

CNJ831:

BRAKIE:

CNJ831,You seem to be looking in a very small box..Look outside of that box and you will see modelers has been buying what pleases them for years..How else can we explain a SD90MAC along side a 10 wheeler?  The real reason behind that behavior isn't a collector..The reason is simple..This is a hobby that doesn't have any real disciplines or rules govern how a modeler should model.Model railroading has always been a free style hobby.

 

Honest, Brakie, I don't have any blinders on.

I'll freely admit that many newer hobbyists and even some of the oldtimers, firmly believe that our hobby is absolutely without rules, regulations, or disciplines to be followed. However, that's really not true.

Just try submitting an article for publication written about a Plywood Pacific, a layout regularly running those SD90MACs along side 10-wheelers, or having towns and cities consisting of plopped-down, RTR structures and such and see if it's accepted by any of the magazines today. I can save everyone time by telling folks it simply won't happen. The best you're likely to get is a condescending smile and a rejection letter. To be acceptable, things in our hobby must conform to certain rules and standards. Simply put, the magazines understand that the hobby does have rules, even if the magazine editors don't wish to acknowledge this openly. In fact, the magazines themselves largely exist to show the reader the various "right" ways of doing things, like creating realistic scenery, accurate locomotives and detailed rolling stock. It's by no means an "anything is acceptable"  hobby. 

CNJ831 

Well,unless the hobby has changed I still see it as it was years ago..A bunch of adults basically doing as they please when it comes to buying what they want.

Look more carefully at the next train show that has 2 or more modular displays and then asks yourself where is the discipline?

 As far as writing a article..Get serious..Average joe modeler doesn't bother--just look at the Godzilla basement size layouts and above average modeling that gets publish vs. the more common average modeling..

 No,magazines push agendas such as DCC,RTR,Sound,foam,scenery material etc from their advertisers by using  a new "hobby great/expert ..Hard to believe? How many of the past hobby "leaders/experts" is still around or still in the hobby?

Gone are the articles on scratch building a locomotive,freight or passenger car.That died years ago.

 So,its back to a free style hobby with no real rules or disciplines unless you care to follow the infomercials they call articles..

 You do remember MR did a upgrade on the Carolina Central using Kato's Unitrack?  There are other examples if you care to look starting in the 90s.

Look a tad closer at the pictures in MR..You may be surprise in what you see as far as RTR buildings,RTR cars etc.

 Now,I suspect in the coming years there well be more prototypical modeling done by the younger modelers but,that day hasn't arrived yet.

Until that day arrives modelers will continue to free style or to use your favorite word "collect" what ever suits their fancy.The manufacturers knows this and we see this with every new announcement..Just look at the rash of short line locomotives on the older models..

And guys like us will be debating the different hobby styles..