General Discussion

Over lunch today I just happened to get curious about the former PRR Chicago - New York mainline; specifically the portion from greater Chicago to Crestline, Ohio.  I knew that NS wasn't operating this portion and wanted to find out what was going on.  So, lo and behold I came across current owner Chicago, Fort Wayne and Eastern (CFER).  Can anyone tell me what their operations are like and what commodity groups are strong for them?  I'm guessing that the mainline isn't up to the lofty PRR standards these days, though.

Los Angeles Rams Guy:

Over lunch today I just happened to get curious about the former PRR Chicago - New York mainline; specifically the portion from greater Chicago to Crestline, Ohio.  I knew that NS wasn't operating this portion and wanted to find out what was going on.  So, lo and behold I came across current owner Chicago, Fort Wayne and Eastern (CFER).  Can anyone tell me what their operations are like and what commodity groups are strong for them?  I'm guessing that the mainline isn't up to the lofty PRR standards these days, though.

I don't know much about the operations/commodities, but I did snoop-up the former PRR/PC main that CFER uses now about 11 years ago.  I checked it out on Hwy. 30 east of Valpo.  My parents and I used to take that highway on the way to Decatur, IN and I'd keep my face plastered against the passenger-side window, straining for a glimpse of a PC headlight (and we'd see PC action there occasionally).  I also rode Amtrak's Broadway Limited over that line in 1986 between Crestline and Chicago.

That portion of the PC main was a problem maintenance-wise as I understand it.  They used a crummy limestone-based ballast rock that tended to degrade into a mushy substance with rain and lead to a lot of slow orders. 

When I was out there, the ex-PC main was single-tracked and the ROW didn't look to be in real good shape.  The signals had been removed as I remember and there was considerable vegetation growing between the rails and there were visible sags in the roadbed.  Some locals told me they didn't often see any trains on the line but they did come through mostly at night.

I'm glad that the CFER is making the former PRR mainline between Chicago and Crestline alive and well although it is disappointing that it's not up to the standards of what it once was.  Anyone know what the real story was on Conrail/NS kicking Amtrak off of this route?

Ed, where art thou?

CF&E seems to depend on grain, primarily, for their on-line traffic base.  They also run a train to and from Chicago, crew goes up one day and comes back the next.  For awhile, they were running a daily train each way between Chicago and Fort Wayne but business has fallen off to the present operation.

 Occasionally, they run a grain train from Hamlet, IN, to Crestline, OH, where it is handed off to CSX, usually this train will have CSX power. 

They also have the former GR&I branch, remnant, between Fort Wayne and Decatur, IN, site of another large grain operation.

There's at least one yard job at Fort Wayne and another at Lima, a job that goes from Fort Wayne to Lima daily, I think, another that goes west toward at least Warsaw, IN.

NS maintains its trackage rights and has started operating, from all appearances, at least one westbound daily west of Fort Wayne, almost always an intermodal train and usually its train 235, but not always. 

Upgrades coming east of Fort Wayne with a connection track being built at Bucyrus, OH, to facilitate moves between the CF&E and the NS Sandusky District toward Columbus, as part of the NS Heartland Corridor project.  NS will operate via trackage rights, rumored to start up next year sometime.

Los Angeles Rams Guy:

I'm glad that the CFER is making the former PRR mainline between Chicago and Crestline alive and well although it is disappointing that it's not up to the standards of what it once was.  Anyone know what the real story was on Conrail/NS kicking Amtrak off of this route?

I grew up in Bucyrus, just west of Crestline.  Back when the Amtrak reroute was about to happen, there was a lot of press in our local paper about it.

From what I understood, Conrail wanted to abandon a section of the route out in Indiana that the Broadway and Capitol used.  Since Amtrak would become the only user of that section of the route, Conrail was going to start charging Amtrak for track maintenance.

Also, from what I can recall, Amtrak was dealing with delays any time Conrail decided to run a train on the route across Ohio.  There's a passing siding on the east side of Bucyrus, but west of Bucyrus, the next siding wasn't until Lima due to Conrail single-tracking the route around 1983.

Kevin

ValleyX:

CF&E seems to depend on grain, primarily, for their on-line traffic base.  They also run a train to and from Chicago, crew goes up one day and comes back the next.  For awhile, they were running a daily train each way between Chicago and Fort Wayne but business has fallen off to the present operation.

 Occasionally, they run a grain train from Hamlet, IN, to Crestline, OH, where it is handed off to CSX, usually this train will have CSX power. 

They also have the former GR&I branch, remnant, between Fort Wayne and Decatur, IN, site of another large grain operation.

There's at least one yard job at Fort Wayne and another at Lima, a job that goes from Fort Wayne to Lima daily, I think, another that goes west toward at least Warsaw, IN.

NS maintains its trackage rights and has started operating, from all appearances, at least one westbound daily west of Fort Wayne, almost always an intermodal train and usually its train 235, but not always. 

Upgrades coming east of Fort Wayne with a connection track being built at Bucyrus, OH, to facilitate moves between the CF&E and the NS Sandusky District toward Columbus, as part of the NS Heartland Corridor project.  NS will operate via trackage rights, rumored to start up next year sometime.

Unless it's changed ownership, that grain operation in Decatur is Central Soya. 

Oh to see those grimey black PC engines crawling across Jefferson St. again!  The memories...

WIAR:

Los Angeles Rams Guy:

Over lunch today I just happened to get curious about the former PRR Chicago - New York mainline; specifically the portion from greater Chicago to Crestline, Ohio.  I knew that NS wasn't operating this portion and wanted to find out what was going on.  So, lo and behold I came across current owner Chicago, Fort Wayne and Eastern (CFER).  Can anyone tell me what their operations are like and what commodity groups are strong for them?  I'm guessing that the mainline isn't up to the lofty PRR standards these days, though.

I don't know much about the operations/commodities, but I did snoop-up the former PRR/PC main that CFER uses now about 11 years ago.  I checked it out on Hwy. 30 east of Valpo.  My parents and I used to take that highway on the way to Decatur, IN and I'd keep my face plastered against the passenger-side window, straining for a glimpse of a PC headlight (and we'd see PC action there occasionally).  I also rode Amtrak's Broadway Limited over that line in 1986 between Crestline and Chicago.

That portion of the PC main was a problem maintenance-wise as I understand it.  They used a crummy limestone-based ballast rock that tended to degrade into a mushy substance with rain and lead to a lot of slow orders. 

When I was out there, the ex-PC main was single-tracked and the ROW didn't look to be in real good shape.  The signals had been removed as I remember and there was considerable vegetation growing between the rails and there were visible sags in the roadbed.  Some locals told me they didn't often see any trains on the line but they did come through mostly at night.

Obviously that would have been really neat to have seen the mainline in its heyday with both the Broadway LTD and the General.  IMHO, it's a shame that Conrail's decision to downgrade the portion between Chicago and Crestline ultimately killed off Amtrak's version of the Broadway LTD.  Because of the trackage rights that NS has over CFER between these points, what is the top speed of trains that CFER operates?  My guess is that it's a far cry from the glory years. 

When I was on the ex-PC main in 1998 (?) it looked as I described.  Hopefully they've upgraded the rail, ties and ballast since then. 

I got curious too and Googled the CFER.  Here's where I found some photos:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=CFE

I also did a search by location and found some very nice pictures from the Decatur, IN area, mostly shot during the Erie Western days (the short-lived attempt to keep part of the EL main in operation).  The photos show the PC (ex-GR&I branch) tracks still crossing the ex-EL main.  Later the EL tracks east of the PC crossing were removed, the tower was scrapped and they (CSX?  CR?) built a new connection from the ex-PC to the ex-EL curving from north to west to reach a canning plant I think on the west side of Decatur.

The inside of the NW depot there was special - my uncle would've been a station agent there at the time of the interior photo.

Looks like the CFER likes(ed) GP38-2s.

Now I'm really missing the old days!

Sadly, the ex PRR Main has been severed just East of Gary, IN, so CF&E trains have to to take a different route into Chicago.  IIRC, they use CSX's Barr Yard. 

The Central Soya Company was bought by Bunge several years ago.  The facility in Decatur, IN still processes soybeans.  When CR/CSX serviced the plant, there was a daily train that somtimes ran 100 cars.

Sadly, the N&W line spoken of above (the former Cloverleaf/NKP from Toledo to St.Louis) has been removed East of Craigville, IN. 

NS still dispatches the line West of Fort Wayne, and NS was running a train daily Eastbound, too, until that train was abolished due to low traffic.  The line to Decatur is dispatched by the Pittsburgh West Dispatcher

Los Angeles Rams Guy:

Obviously that would have been really neat to have seen the mainline in its heyday with both the Broadway LTD and the General.  IMHO, it's a shame that Conrail's decision to downgrade the portion between Chicago and Crestline ultimately killed off Amtrak's version of the Broadway LTD.  Because of the trackage rights that NS has over CFER between these points, what is the top speed of trains that CFER operates?  My guess is that it's a far cry from the glory years. 

I can still remember Conrail running fast freights and piggybacks through Bucyrus when the route was double-tracked.  It was very nice to see.

I can also remember the line being single-tracked in 1983.  Part of the route on my one school bus went over the tracks west of Bucyrus.  I remember the rails of the north main disappearing (leaving the ties still in the ballast) and then a work train of gondolas with a crane on them removing the ties sometime later.  At the grade crossings, the roads were temporarily filled in with loose stone or ballast for a while, which made for an interesting ride on the school bus when the back tires dug into it and started to spin.

But the remaining track was relaid with welded rail, which, at the time, was a good sign.  Never imagined that it would go downhill so fast.

Kevin

The CF&E line to Chicago is alive and well, but it has changed recently.  Living in Valparaiso since the late 70's, and always within whistle distance of the line, I have monitored the line for quite some time. 

When CF&E took over the line from CSX, it ran a train into Chicago one day and returned the next day.  These trains started out about 30-40 cars and gradually increased in size.  Then, around 2006 they began running daily trains FWCH and CHFW.  The problem was the lack of crews and sidings to pass.  They used the Valpo siding at times to meet (I saw a couple of these).  The Valpo siding would only hold a 35 car train.  It did create good railroading drama to see a meet on this line at night.  During this time, the trains would run at nearly any time...even tho scheduled to run at night.  Recrews were often needed as trains had a difficult time into and out of Blue Island Yard.  I personally saw several trains in excess of 100 cars, often with blocks of soybeans for Bunge (ex Central Soya) in Decatur. 

About a year ago the FRA came thru with an inspection crew and marked up over 30 defects and slapped a 10mph speed restriction on the line.  That really fouled up operations.  A private maintennace crew rehabbed the line lifting the speed to 40mph by fall of 2008.  Rumors were that NS was helping fund the rehab with RailAmerica and that trackage rights would be executed with intermodals using the line between FtW and County (Hobart, In) where the NS and CFE ran parallel and a connection allowed trains to return to the NS ex NKP line.  A question to a RailAmerica senior executive regarding this arrangement was met with a smile and a vague answer.

 On December 3, 2008 NS train 25A ran east on the CFE.  The 25A then became a regular early morning train, usually thru Valpo at 7 - 8am.  25A made a fine sight in the early morning sunlight passing the 125 year old red bricked Franklin House tavern (an ex hotel adjacent to the PRR depot) with a light dusting of snow and clear blue skies.

However, the recession caused NS to cancel 25A in February, 2009.  About that time NS placed train 295 in service between Chicago and Florida, using Rail America's Florida East Coast to access Miami and South Florida.  This train did not run on the CFE, staying on the NS to Ft Wayne.

Rumor has it CFE is only running a couple of round trips weekly to and from Chicago.  I havent seen or heard a train in quite sometime.  Yesterday a 235 did run on the CFE. 

NS can make very good time running FtW to County, even at the reduced 40mph (vs 60mph on NS line), due to a lack of meets on the line.  Plus there is maintennace work on the NS line now.  My guess is that NS is paying a yearly fee to RailAmerica and even tho their NKP line can certainly handle the recession caused reduction in train count (from 30-35 daily to perhaps 22-25), they will use this to qualify crews and be prepared for the return (I hope) of the economy.

The CFE runs a local out of Warsaw, with occassional trips to Valpo to drop off a car of lumber for Von Tobels.  That service has dropped from 2-3 times weekly to 2-3 times monthly due to the drop in housing starts.

Grain is loaded out of Hamlet, usually about 1x week for Carolina feeder lots.  Those trains run with CSX power and are usually 65 cars in length.  Recently a connnection was placed with the CKIN at Thomaston.  Not much traffic is moving on that connection yet, however the NKP 765 did use the connection to provide two steam excursions recently out of North Judson.

Lets hope good economic times return soon, so this line can see a few more trains.

ed

Kevin is essentially right about why Amtrak rerouted off the former PFW&C.  This was another cost that helped sink the Valpo commuter service. 

Fort Wayne, the second-largest city in Indiana, wants new corridor passenger services rerouted through there rather than South Bend.  New capacity and upgradinding will be necessary whichever route is chosen.  Sharing trackage would be more cost-effective, but railroads and Amtrak don't always play well together.  Add to that the opinion of some that passenger services are more incompatible in optimal wheel and rail profile as speed increases above even 90 mph.

That old PRR ROW might be just the ticket to be taken over and rebuilt as a dedicated, passenger-only HSR corridor.

Los Angeles Rams Guy:

Can anyone tell me what their operations are like and what commodity groups are strong for them?  I'm guessing that the mainline isn't up to the lofty PRR standards these days, though.

Inside Fort Wayne, the vast majority of traffic you see on this line is NS's triple Crown using the lines as a staging area for access to their yard. I see triple crown trains stopped on this single track main, all the time, giving you an idea just what a priority these lines are.

NS also uses a portion of this line as a bridge between their new castle district (to cincinnati) and their NKP line into chicago. This by far is the heaviest moving traffic use this line sees.

On top of that I frequently see a scrap metal train westbound, that may actually be CF&E traffic

And there is a sulfur train that comes through from time to time, that really shows just how bad a shape this line is in.  due to the weight of this train, there are sections where the rail bows up (BETWEEN WHEELSETS) high enough to pull the spikes right out of the ties, as the train rolls along.

I guess that CSX has some absurdly small restriction (in the lease agreement to CF&E)  on just how many  (few) trains CF&E can operate on this line per day.  Makes the line pretty much worthless to anyone needing to move volume