General Discussion

I am helping a friend design a 3 foot gauge farm railway, and in order to save money for us, I was wondering if it was possible to use standard gauge track components for 3 foot gauge.  Yes I know it would be very heavy for narrow gauge, but I just want to know if it could work.  The reason is the Western Maryland used to go throught his property and when they tore it up they threw all the rails and ties in the woods.  If we could reuse at least the rails it would save a lot of money.  I think it is 100 pound rail. 

 While we're on this subject, he says that when trains wrecked there they just pushed damaged trucks into the woods and left them.  Is it possible to either use the frames with new wheels and axles for 3ft gauge, or maybe even to narrow them by cutting sections out and welding them back together?

(1) The larger track section will do fine until you get ito the curves. The Colorado narrow gauges are all trying to upgrade/standardize on 85# rail.

(2) Cutting down axles & truck components? ....Make sure to stay away from me!

(Sounds like WM learned some PC/CR bad habits.) 

Calling Mr. Stahl!

So the rails and trucks are on your friend’s property?  Ordinarily, with this kind of abandoned material, you would have to be somewhat concerned about who has title to it.  Even if taking does not result in any prosecution, you don’t want to be forced to give it back, after committing a lot of labor to salvaging and re-using it.  If the WM left the material on your property, though, I guess you might be in a fairly strong position.

But in any case, as mudchicken has mentioned, the rail would be useable for 3-foot-gauge.  A lot of narrow gauge lines ended up using relatively heavy rail in proportion to their gauge, compared to standard gauge.  Some of the 2-footers used rail in the 56-60+ pound range.  Spikes and ties from the standard gauge would be fine for the 3-foot-gauge.

However, trying to modify and use the trucks and wheelsets for 3-foot-gauge seems like an uphill battle.  A common wheel diameter for 3-foot-gauge is 24”, and the standard gauge wheels will be 33”.  It would be an awful lot of cutting, grinding, measuring, fixturing, and expert welding to narrow a standard gauge truck.  And the result would be a mighty heavy-duty and tall 3-foot-gauge truck. 

The wheelbase would be quite long if you chose to not shorten the truck frames, but shortening them would be a lot of extra work and would yield inelegant results.   So, even though they may be free for the taking, by the time you invest all the labor of recovering and re-working them, your effort would be better spent on locating and purchasing some narrow gauge components.  If you only acquired the wheels or wheel/axle sets, you could build the side frames, bearing boxes, bolster, and other components easier than modifying the standard gauge components, and end up with a much better result. 

Thanks guys.  That's what I figured about the trucks, but it's good the rails will work.  Some of that stuff has been there for 50-60 years so I don't think anybody cares about it.

In Ireland, the preserved Suir Valley Railway near Waterford is a 3' gauge line built on the trackbed of a standard gauge (which in Ireland is 5' 3"!) line. In fact when the preservationist took it over most of the standard gauge was still in place so they just moved one of the rails inward to make it 3' gauge. (all their rolling stock was 3' guage hence the decision to convert the line).

 As for re-gauging existing rolling stock, the Tal-y-llyn Railway in Wales are the experts when it comes to that. They've had to be because their line is built to the almost unique gauge of 2' 3" so when they took it over in 1950 and set about acquiring extra rolling stock most of the stock they acquired from elsewhere had to be re-gauged from either 2' or 2' 6". I seem to recall they acquired a job lot of 3' gauge track from the aborted construction of the Channel Tunnel in the 1970s.

 Ironically, the one place the TR were able to get 2' 3" stock from, the nearby Corris Railway which closed in 1948, has now been re-opened. The CR have also had to acquire and regauge other stock, though they've also built a new steam loco and have just started fund raising for their next new build project. 

I am not sure what your venture is.  If it is for public use and education, then I would point out that the Maine Narrow Guage museum operation on the Portland waterfront was along the old CN right of way with the standard guage rails moved in to accommodate the narrow guage trains.  However, it looked odd and was not authentic in that the rails were much too big for the narrow guage.  But if authenticity is not a factor in viewing and marketing, then, yes, it is usable.

Since the WM ran through your friend's farm, he's likely "not far" (less than, say, 100 miles) from the East Broad Top Railroad, a 3 ft. gage line in south-central Pennsylvania.  See:

http://www.ebtrr.com/

Many NG hoppers used to be stored and just rusting away in the EBT's Mt. Union yard.  For a "sortable" physical roster of same as of 2000 and maybe as recently as 2005, see:

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/proster.html 

Perhaps you or your friend could apporach either the Kovalchick family and/ or the "Friends of the EBT" and see about purchasing some of the surplus trucks and other essential equipment ?

- Paul North.

santafe347:

I am helping a friend design a 3 foot gauge farm railway, and in order to save money for us, I was wondering if it was possible to use standard gauge track components for 3 foot gauge.

I assume your friend’s plan is to build a sort of hobby or estate railroad with no functional purpose other than to ride on for enjoyment.  If this is the case, there is no particular prototype standard, even though a specific gauge has been selected.  A 3-foot-gauge could carry people even if built to a very light pattern.  Rail as light as 16-pound would work fine.  Small mine tram wheels or even Fairmont stamped and drawn motorcar wheels would easily handle the load.  Ties on the order of 6” x 6” or smaller with small spikes or screw clips would suffice.  Lots of compromises such as the omission of springs are possible when building to this light pattern.  Other than wheels and rail, all metalwork can be fabricated from scratch.  Building to this light pattern fulfills the objective to ride on a train of sorts, but it lacks the charm of something more authentic to the medium to heavy prototypes.  Nevertheless, building a hobby railroad is a lot of work and expense, so the compromises are very attractive to some people.  

Railroad prototypes such as D&RGW and EBT are at the heavy end of the pattern range, using heavy cast iron 24” diameter wheels and rail in the 60-85-pound range.  Acquiring prototype rolling stock or a locomotive in that heavy pattern, and transporting it to your site will no doubt entail serious costs.  I agree with Paul’s advice about contacting EBT to see if they would sell you anything.  Other than that, there are sometimes ads in Live Steam magazine offering a supply of relatively light rail, trucks, wheelsets, etc.  I agree with Henry that too large of rail can look ungainly, but that is sort of the look of narrow gauge.  A lot of the components of narrow gauge are relative large when compared to the same components in standard gauge systems.  When using extra heavy rail, it helps the look to use the heaviest ties and spikes you can find such as those used on standard gauge mainlines.  It also helps the look to use heavy, deep rock ballast.  I kind of like the look of those extra heavy components in narrow gauge track. 

If I were starting from scratch, buying all the rail and track components, I would not select the heaviest pattern.  Instead, I would use rail around 60-pound and standard gauge ties and spikes.  But if I had a free supply of 100-pound rail, I would use it and build the heaviest pattern. 

I have seen some few photos of the Drummond Mine railroad in Columbia, SA.  I am guessing that it is about the highest capacity 3-foot-gauge operation in existence.  I wonder what size rail they use.  Maybe you could get exact measurements or the rolling numbers off of that WM rail and somebody here could tell you more about it.  Did the WM leave any joint bars or track bolts? 

Following-up a little bit on on the most recent comments by Bucyrus (above) with regard to: 

- Switches (more properly, a "turnout", each consisting of 2 switch points + 1 frog + 2 guard rails + lots of special plates and other fittings, etc.) : Does your friend intend or need to have any ?  If so, the cost and availability of those could affect the rail decision more than the availability of "free" rail and accessories;

Curvature - how sharp ?  100 lb. rail can go to as sharp as 250 ft. radius (23-degree curve) without a hugely additional amount of difficulty after it is bolted together in a longer "string", provided that the access to perform all that is "good", such as in or over a farm field.  In a more restricted setting such as on top of a narrow fill, it is a lot trickier.  Beyond that, you can get down to maybe 150 ft. radius (40-degree curve) without special tools or pre-bending and with a big enough dozer or loader to hold the rail in place for the desired curve until it is spiked down, but sharper becomes progressively harder and more work and more challenging.   

- Paul North.

Ok, some more details.  It will be a full scale working railroad, not a model of any kind.  At first we will be hauling hay bales, and later expanding to corn.  When we finally get all that working we will build a scenic line through the woods.  It will be kind of on the big side rather than small. 

 I talked to him about the rail, apparently he looked at the markings and it's around 140 pound rail, so it would be too big for sure.  I had told him about the EBT but right now we have pretty much no funds available so I don't know if they would sell any hoppers or not.  Maybe someone knows what they charged the Colorado railroads and the WP&Y for the hoppers they sold them.

cprted:

Do you guys have someone who knows what they're doing involved in this little project?  I hate to labeled a curmudgeon, but this project would fall under the jurisdiction of the FRA and/or a state level transportation agency and would have to licensed in the same manner as any other industrial railway.

 No we don't, so thanks for pointing that out.  I'll tell him next time I see him.

Ask your friend to double-check the markings, or better yet, measure the height and base width of the rail.  140 pound rail is completely inconsistent with:  1) WM just leaving something that valuable in the woods, and 2) 50 to 60 years ago.  Also partially inconsistent in that while I'm not a WM expert, I doubt that WM ever purchased anything that large/ heavy.

What you're proposing to use it for is more like one of the first pioneer railroads - think Best Friend of Charleston or Tom Thumb - or a plantation railroad than a 3 ft. narrow gauge in terms of capacity and service.  It doesn't have to be big - see what was done with the Maine 2-footers.  In view of you're financial constraints, I suggest revisiting Bucyrus' suggestions above about using motorcar or pushcar parts.  Better yet, visit a real working short-line or tourist railroad such as Strasburg or the EBT and see just how much weight that seemingly dinky equipment can actually carry.  I'll bet you can't put enough bales of hay on a pushcar to overload it !  Otherwise, think about amusement park or surplus mine equipment, etc.

If you do approach the EBT, you don't want the whole hopper, do you ?  Just the trucks, couplers, and brakes, please.  They can keep the hopper body and scrap it - that would be the attraction to them. 

- Paul North.

About the rail: I think it was abandoned in the 70s or so, it was after Chessie because they had a duplicate route and they went with the B&O instead. 

Pushcars: these aren't the normal little 1x2x2 or whatever they are rectangular hay bales or even the smaller 3 foot or so round ones, these are 5-6 feet around and about 5 feet tall and they weigh several hundred pounds.  Pushcars may be an option, but we want them to be locomotive-hauled and it is a pretty good distance to have to push them.  (Strasburg is standard gauge, so not dinky equipment.)  I know how much the EBT cars can hold for what you'd think for their size.

 Yes, trucks and everything else is what we would need but a hopper or two would be nice for ballast.  Somebody else did this once, only buying trucks, but they never scrapped the bodies, they are still there.

Here is some excellent video of heavy 2-foot-gauge:

http://vimeo.com/4552678