General Discussion

Good morning.

I am hoping that some of you who may already be retired and also be railfans can make a few suggestions of some towns in the upper Midwest where my "better half" and I can look for possible retirement locations.  While we like it here in the Aurora area and love our home (not to mention the great railfan locations close by), the prospect of paying DuPage county (IL) real estate tax rates after retirement are not enticing.  Sooooo, we are going to begin looking at towns (IN, WI, MI, IA, etc.) are all open possibilities, where we can find reasonable real estate values, lower tax rates, good health services, etc. and hopefully some real railfan opportunities to boot.  Any suggestions?  Thanks to any and all who can make suggestions.

Fond du Lac and Stevens Point, WI

If I decide to stay in Wisconsin when I retire, those are my first two choices (for the same reasons you mentioned).

Retirement... you lucky dog.   I just "retired" from Kalmbach but find that I'll probably need to work for another 20 years or so to have a nest egg of any sort.

Have you considered anything in Wisconsin along the Mississippi north of LaCrosse? You could have BNSF on the Wisconsin side, CP on the Minnesota side, and the added bonus of activity on the river. Naturally, if you could find something on a bluff that would eliminate the risk of floods it would be ideal. If you want to do a trial run, spend a night at the Inn on the River in Trempaleau, Wis. They're very nice people and the hotel is right across the street from the BNSF mainline. There's also a good little restaurant that's famous for Walnut Balls (hang with me for a second as I explain). Instead of serving meatballs with pasta, they make balls from Walnuts (which the town is apparently famous for?). It sounds odd, but Tom Danneman and I sampled them and they're actually pretty good.

Anyway, with the rolling bluffs along the river and all sorts of little inlets stemming off from the river, there's all sorts of opportunity to incorporate plenty of scenery into your railfanning... especially in the fall when the color turn.

Good luck!

Bergie

Thanks guys.

Zardoz, thanks...we lived in Wausau from 1974-1978 and liked it very much and still have friends up there so that area is a real possibility.

Bergie, well, retirement is not in the immediate future since I am about to turn 59 this year and will retire sometime between age 62 and 65 I think.  Although not a immediately impending thing, we are going to BEGIN thinking about the possibilities NOW so the rush to plan does not hit us all at once.

Thanks again guys!

Taxes can be a problem, but so can access to amenities, health care, a decent string of restaurants, and other things not related to rail fanning.  Do state taxes vary substantially?  Alberta has no sales tax, and its income tax is low.  Why more people don't pack up and move there is beyond me because it has it all...and I do mean "all".

As you age, access to health care and quality shopping becomes important.  Will you and/or She need a family physician, or will you be content with walk-in clinics when one will serve you?

Just some other considerations.

-Crandell

Try looking South of I-80 in IL try were I live at a town called Streator IL right along the BNSF Transcon so lots of railfan opps here.  We also have the IL railnet and a NS branchline here so other traffic CSX has a line in Ottawa with Iowa Interstate having trackage rights there.  Healthcare is GOOD with affliation with OSF healthcare and St JOhn of SpringField.  Shopping lets see BN one hour south of here Peru is 30 mins away Ottawa is 20 Mins away for the Major stores Like Wal-Mart Home Dopt Menards stuff like that and Malls.  Taxes are LOW I pay 700 a YEAR for my house Property values are nice also you can get a NICE 3-4 bedroom home for under 125K I paid 65 for mine yes it is a fixer upper howerver I am not going anywere either so this is what I wanted also.  Resterants our locals beat the pants off the chains so we are happier with them.  But if you go the Bloomington or Peru they have most of them.

I am baling out of the Chicago area also.  I can;t stand the politics in Illinois among other things.  This has to be the crookedest state in the union and people don't care.  I want to get out before they deal with the debt they are sweeping under the rug.  Michigan has a lot to offer.  I am heading for Traverse City in the next year. Property taxes are miniscule compared to Illinois.  My son just built a $365,000 house on a $100,000 lake front lot and his property tax will be $1080.  It seems half of Michigan is in foreclosure and there are tremendous deals to be had all over the state.  Two I have looked at are a 4000 sq ft house on the peninsula between east and west bay with a swimming pool, water views in both directions and two acres of of ground asking $199,900.  Nearly all houses have bone dry full basements as they are built on sand.  Since it is so hilly nearly all of them have walkout ground level entrances into the basements ( great for hauling in the plywood!). Another I looked at was a 3000 sq ft log home on 21 acres that sold for $141,500.  Michigan is kind of unique toward the upper portion of the lower peninsula.  It never gets much below ten degrees in the winter and Traverse City is the cherry capital of the world.  Lake Michigan tempers the super cold air but it snows every day and they got over 140" last year.  Just into Michigan from Indiana is another big fruit and small lake belt.  Saugatuck and Holland are nice areas as is South Haven, Muskegon, Ludington and Manistee all on the west coast.  Petosky north of Traverse city is the home of Matthew Shay and his home is there.  Cadillac a little inland is also a very nice area.  Once you get to Ludington the towns pretty much close up in the winter when the tourists leave.  Traverse City has a community college and an excellent hospital.  FIne dining restaurants stay open year round.  The Grand Traverse Resort has a Jack Nicklaus designed golf course based on St Andrews.  Traverse is close to interlochen Music camp and has numerous classical and symphonic conerts as well as a classical music station.  Sleeping bear Dunes state park is thirty miles west and has huge sand dunes 4-500 feet tall.  The Lelenau peninsula northwest of Traverse has numerous small art colonies, B&Bs and fine dining. Summer temps are in the high 70's and 50's at night.  Try this web site for Traverse City area houses:

www.taar.com

Try this one for all areas of Michigan inclduing Traverse City.

www.cbgreatlakes.com

Everyone is looking for "things to do, places to go, things to see", but you are forgetting that your winters "up there" can be/are severe and as you age, your temperature goes down and you spend more time with your doctor than your family.  And the ever optimistic Bergie thinks he will have enough acorns in about 20 years.  (Retirement at what, 50 Mr. B?)

Reality is that when you are young you could melt the whole front lawn if you made snow angels.  When you are retirement age, there aren't enough warm spots in the house or clothes in the closet.  Go south somewhere and vacation up north.  Much better solution. 

edbenton:

Try looking South of I-80 in IL try were I live at a town called Streator IL right along the BNSF Transcon so lots of railfan opps here.  We also have the IL railnet and a NS branchline here so other traffic CSX has a line in Ottawa with Iowa Interstate having trackage rights there.  Healthcare is GOOD with affliation with OSF healthcare and St JOhn of SpringField.  Shopping lets see BN one hour south of here Peru is 30 mins away Ottawa is 20 Mins away for the Major stores Like Wal-Mart Home Dopt Menards stuff like that and Malls.  Taxes are LOW I pay 700 a YEAR for my house Property values are nice also you can get a NICE 3-4 bedroom home for under 125K I paid 65 for mine yes it is a fixer upper howerver I am not going anywere either so this is what I wanted also.  Resterants our locals beat the pants off the chains so we are happier with them.  But if you go the Bloomington or Peru they have most of them.

Oh Lord!  That is soooo depressing.  $700/year in property taxes!

I pay $8,323.53 this year in the same state.  That works out to around $700/month in property taxes.  Which is the amount Ed pays in a year.

I live about 100 miles from Streator.  85% of my property taxes go to the school districts.  I'll bet $10.00 against a donut that the students in Streator are as well educated as the students in Antioch.

Excuse me, I have to go cry now.  That tax grab by the schools does make it harder to build a retirement nest egg.

Like a number of you, I am reaching the conclusion that Chicago has about outlived its usefulness for me.  Ten and a quarter percent sales tax in Chicago's "Downtown Retail Core"?  Said Core running as far north as Montrose Avenue (if not further?).  Forty-four hundred North and fifteen hundred West?  That's over seven miles to where the coordinates begin!  I intend to be out of here before the Olympics come, which I hope they don't.  And don't get me started on the parking meters and the potholes.  We are slowly checking out some retirement prospects, most (but not all) in the Midwest.

I know that Wisconsin taxes federal pensions (CRS a/k/a Civil Service, for example).  I do not know if it can or does tax state, municipal or private pensions, but that's definitely something to check out.  I think Racine would be fun to live in.  You're on the lake and health facilities are in town -- and if you want to fly there's Mitchell Field in the South Side of Milwaukee and of course O'Hare further down.  Amtrak station at Sturtevant. 

I found Whitewater, WI absolutely charming.  It's about 3/4 of the way between Chicago and Madison, but on the old federal road, not the Interstate.  Pretty town with great parks but I can't speak for the healthcare system.  A good deal of small-town charm.

If you do decide to tough out Illinois, have you considered "our" Rochelle?  Like so many of us, I've been there many times and usually spend a night or two. Really nice people there, unpretentious but solid.  It's basically a blue-collar town that does well for its own (9-hole golf course, for example, and the local powerhouse at times sells power back to Com Ed!)  Great library, some shopping incl. Wal-Mart -- if you wanted, say, a JC Penney you'd have to drive about 40 minutes to the north, northeast or east.

Speaking of which, two of those three Penney's are almost brand new and part of the suburban sprawl that has now overrun DeKalb and Sugar Grove.  From talking to folks, it seems as though Rochelle's collective worries about the future are usually in one of three categories:  (1) Yuppies from Sycamore and similar points north invading the north side of town and building their McMansions there, driving up taxes; (2) Entry-level blue collar employees, many Spanish-speaking, who live in town because they work at Global III or support it (truck driving, for example), who will send the South Side downmarket and bloat the local public-school budget; and (3) the inexorable crawl of Chicago and a fear of falling into Chicago hassles and its miscreant political haways:  especially, I sense, the semi-legal aspects of local corruption like hiring high-paid consultants who are "blessed" to be someone's son-in-law they find particularly abhorrent.  As I said, Rochelle is a town that does for its own and quite well IMHO. The idea of spending money on outsiders to do what they can figure out for themselves is unacceptable. 

When I consider the achievement Rochelle has had in attracting industry and stimulating same (the municipal rwy. for example), I hope they keep up their independence.  And you're at the axis of two Interstate highways!  (I apologize if I am flogging information you already know quite well.... if that's the case hopefully others will read and enjoy.) 

I have a weakness for certain college towns, especially the original land-grant based type that were put out in the country on purpose.  Big city amenities sometimes come in small-towns with big universities:  In many such towns I've noticed the U. freights in culture, and pretty good sports, too,  Also students tend to lighten the tone a little and you won't as much get the stranded-in-modernity feeling of the newer suburbs.  When you think about it, students and seniors have a lot in common:  they need flexibility in housing more than mortgages, like to investigate interesting non-chain stores, and are a receptive market for enhanced healthcare services (especially in state u's with teaching hospitals).  Also, it leads to a more diverse blend of ages. 

For example, I'm a big fan of Lawrence, Kansas, home to the University of Kansas (they call it "U.K." for short.)  The oldest part of campus occupies the top of a small mountain (yes -- a small mountain but a mountain, origin of two different watersheds), and spirals down a very steep slope from there. You'll appreciate the fadt that U.K. a few years ago installed a handicapable elevator that fronts on the lower campus and runs upward to visitor parking lots, doing most of the "hauling" for you.   On campus you'll run into legions of shiny kids with perhaps a little more upstairs than at, say, a more typical open-entry state college. Downtown is rehabbed and functional, with a restored hotel and small busineses that really work, not just a tarted up "heritage Main" if you know what I mean.  The on-campus art museum is extraordinarily good -- small, but selective.  Worth taking friends to see even if they aren't really museum people. 

Lawrence is on I-70 (which charges tolls for this section -- sorry), about 40 miles west of Kansas City and 20 - 25 east of Topeka.  And it's at those two towns where the Southwest Limited stops, not in Lawrence.  Again, sorry.  You may remember a made-for-TV movie about 25 years ago called "The Day After" (nuclear war).  They closed downtown to film the pre-holocaust sequence and Lawrence students were allowed to run riot, fighting over food, crashing their shopping carts, banging car fenders, etc.  I'm told they found it a lot of fun!   Lawrence has about every type of religious denomination that I can think of, if that's a concern.  For parallel reasons I would like to check out Manhattan, Kansas, home to Kansas State U., but I haven't gotten there yet.  Main gripes about Lawrence:  the weather is undoubtedly severe at times and the cost of living is not as low as in other, same-sized Kansas towns.  (Perhaps I should say "small city," since Lawerence now has more than 80,000 residents.)

I think Columbia, Missouri, is another quintessential college town and has most if not all of the advantages seniors look for:  a not-too-large city with a good health care system (U. Mo. has a med school), continuing ed., and the presence of young people who, like seniors, thrive on the abundant volunteer projects and part-time jobs.  If you're into gardening, you can grow practically anything there that will grow in the Northeast or Midwest states:  Columbia lies at the intersection of three natural biomes (roughly speaking, prairie, plains and border South) but, I can tell you, it gets pretty muggy in the summer and oh, my sinus when all those imported ornamental trees and bushes bloom!  You're about halfway between K.C./MO and St.Louis, both accessible by I-70, and far enough to keep big-city blues away but close enough to go to for the weekend, say.  I don't know what they have in terms of train activity, but about 40 mins.south is Jefferson City, the capital, wiith a real pretty U.P. line running along the Missouri River.  I have been told living expense is moderate.  The U. of Missouri, "Mizzou" to fans, has a charming campus, with an old-school look, very light on the postwar-modern look.  More than one critic has remarked on the school's almost Southern, traditional ambiance in things like fraternities and the beloved Tigers football team. 

Have you at all considered Galesburg?  As you know, there's great railfanning, lots of Amtrak service, a little culture (Carl Sandburg museum, Knox College), restored downtown, mall on the north side and housing in all categories.  I do not know how good their hospital is but since Galesburg is so far out in western Illinois it has a rep. as a "regional" center for shopping, I hope it is for healthcare too but don't yet know. And you're right by an expressway that will take you to I-80.  Weather-wise, I would worry about all the gales in Galesburg in the winter.

Some places I know almost nothing about but intend to investigate: 

Red Wing, Minnesota. Charming old town on the Mississippi, and I don't have to tell you about the trains.

Lafayette, IN. A small-sized city with a "college town" influence from Perdue, plus (I've been told) pretty good fanning but minimal Amtrak service.

Manhattan, KS, as I said before.  (FWIW they get the blue ribbon for the best welcome literature by mail.) 

I'd try to give Bloomington, IN, a closer look but right now it seems a little too isolated for me.

Most of the other towns we are (preliminarily) considering are in KY, TN, NC (esp. the Piedmont), one or two in Central PA or upstate NY and -- though this is a stretch -- Folkston, GA. Except for Folkston in extreme southeastern Georgia, all the places we're looking at have measurably better climates than Northern Illinois. 

Finally, I urge you to hie it to the local bookstore if you haven't already and buy a copy of RETIREMENT PLACES RATED provided it is reasonably up to date (I read mine about 2 years ago).  There are other guides with a consistent methodology, too, but I don't have to tell you that it isn't just a matter of facts vs. opinions, it's how the metrics are taken, how they are weighted, and how they are interpreted that can be crucial. 

Good luck!  Keep us apprised!  PM or e-mail me if you don't want to use this forum!  -  Cheers, al

I will "second" Bergie's suggestion of Trempeleau/LaCrosse Wisconsin area. My wife and I have been to Trempeleau, stayed at The Inn on the River, and liked the area very much. My wife wouldn't be too keen on the winter weather there but personally, I don't mind cold weather as much as I dislike hot weather. They also have some nice bike(summer) and snowmobile(winter) trails. As for train watching spots, LaCrosse probably has some good spots.The bad thing about Trempeleau is the BNSF trains "fly" thru town and you don't get much of a prolonged view of any part of the train. The trains on the west side of the river are a half mile or more away, unless you drive to the other side somewhere to watch them. River activity is interesting except in winter.

Although it may be out of your preferred area, Glenwood Springs, Colorado looks like a nice place to retire, but it's probably more "pricey" than Wisconsin. I don't know anything about real estate taxes in either place, or all the other taxes we all pay (income, sales, gasoline, etc, etc.)

I'm sort of like you, Jim, just looking around for that ideal place. Good luck!

Bill

I've been following this thread with some interest - and more than a little amusement.  My wife decided that snow was wonderful - up on the upper slopes of Mount Charleston, a couple of kilometers higher than the back yard.  Nice thing about the desert southwest - you don't have to shovel sunshine...

I'll admit that close-by railfanning was NOT a priority.  A close-by Air Force base that's unlikely to make it to somebody's force reduction list was.  So was a major city with all the amenities, low taxes and affordable housing in a pleasantly diverse neighborhood.  Now, we have both: Nellis AFB and Las Vegas.

I hope you find a good location in your desired area.  If I suggested moving there, I'd be in the market for a different wife!

Chuck

The tax man cometh.

Of course taxes are just one aspect of the cost of living, but it is a subject worthy of careful study as you approach retirement.  A considerable portion of my tax clients live in the Rockford, IL area so I can offer at least a rough comparison.

Wisconsin recently passed a law to exempt Social Security from state tax.  (By federal law, my Railroad Retirement has always been exempt from state income tax anywhere).  However, unless exempted by federal law, Wisconsin taxes all other income from qualified retirement plans.  That includes both defined benefit plans-the old style company plans- and defined contribution plans-401k, IRA, etc.  Depending on a number of circumstances, Wisconsin will exmpt the first $10 to 15k from tax but then the table gets to the top 6.6% rate very quickly.

Illinois exempts all SSI and qualified retiement income from income tax.  After personal exemptions of $2k for each person on the return ($3k over 65), the current Illinois income tax rate is a flat 3%.  Illinois income tax is very cheap compared to any other of the dozen or so other states where I have clients.

Sales tax in Wisconsin is 5.5% in most counties, 5% in a few, aand a little more in the counties around Milwaukee and Green Bay to pay for places where guys who have to get my on half-million dollar wages have a place to play games.  Food, medicine and accounting services (WA HAHAHAHA) and a bunch of other services are exempt from sales tax.

My Rockford, IL clients are paying 6.25% sales tax, but I don't what is and is not taxed.

As noted in the above posts, property taxes can be all over the map.  All of my Wisconsin and Illinois clients who are home owners report their property taxes on state returns for state tax credits, but I pick up home values usually only when a home purchase is made during the year.  Among my clients, I don't pick up much diference in the property taxes as a percent of the home value.  In Wisconsin, the assessed value in the year of a home purchase is pegged at the purchase price.  The assessor comes around every 4 years to up the assessed value based on recent sales of comps.  So if your neighbor down the street with a home identical to yours puts his place up for sale at twice the price you paid, you might want to shoot him, or at least flatten his tires.

I have to agree with Mookie about the climate in Northern Michigan.  Beside that, rail service up there @#*%*  very limited.

By the way, Washington has no income tax and Oregon has no sales tax.  Consider living in Vancover, WA and shopping in Portland, OR.

Communities I have been impressed with, in no particular order....

Bloomington, In (as earlier mentioned), Dubuque, Iowa, Muscatine, Iowa, Quincy, Il, Flagstaff, Az, and Asheville, NC.

I really enjoy Valparaiso, In, as it is close enough to Chicago for cultural, sports, etc, but the winters are not much fun anymore.

ed

tomikawaTT:

I've been following this thread with some interest - and more than a little amusement.  My wife decided that snow was wonderful - up on the upper slopes of Moun Charleston, a couple of kilometers higher than the back yard.  Nice thing about the desert southwest - you don't have to shovel sunshine...

I'll admit that close-by railfanning was NOT a priority.  A close-by Air Force base that's unlikely to make it to somebody's force reduction list was.  So was a major city with all the amenities, low taxes and affordable housing in a pleasantly diverse neighborhood.  Now, we have it.

I hope you find a good location in your desired area.  If I suggested moving there, I'd be in the market for a different wife!

Chuck

All this is grand, Chuck, but are we allowed to know the name of your town?    -  a.s.