General Discussion

I am curious about the old "Desert Wind" from LA to, I believe, Salt Lake City via Las Vegas.  I know Amtrak ran a successor to the Union Pacific's version but canceled it some years ago.  Given the incredible congestion on Interstate 15 it seems that a new version just to Vegas would be a winning idea. 

My son, who recently made the trip, says that the stop and go traffic across the Mojave Desert is much harder to cope with than the congestion on the LA freeways.  At least in the LA Basin there are alternate routes that don't lead you off into barren desert.

 I know UP would not like it, and I am not sure that turning the train at Vegas would be practical.  And Amtrak probably doesn't have enough rolling stock to boot. 

Anyone have any info about the old train and/or comments on the route?

Jack

As a Las Vegas resident I can state that there is absolutely no interest here in reviving the Desert Wind.  Some of the cited freeway congestion is a result of construction intended to widen I-15 to three lanes in both directions, and will go away once the construction is finished.

Where the idea that the Obama stimulus package contained eight billion dollars for development of a high speed rail link from LA to Las Vegas came from is beyond me.  The media here have never even mentioned the possibility.

Chuck

I'm a former LV resident that remembers years ago there was just such a plan.  If I remember correctly, and I may be mistaken, that AMTK had ordered Talgo tilt trains for this service that would have cut LA-LV travel times down to about 4 1/2 hours.  UP at the time required a 20 mile double tracking of Cima Hill to avoid conjestion, AMTK agreed, and an EIS was started and favorably completed.  Before construction was to begin, Congress forbade AMTK to add the double track and the entire idea was shelved.  I believe the trains ordered are the same ones used in the Seattle-Portalnd trains, but I'm not certain of that.

Also, years ago there was considerable press about a MAGLEV from LA-LV in the early 90's, but the Bush admin said ZERO funds for it, and since no private funding was avaiable, it was shelved also. 

tomikawaTT:

As a Las Vegas resident I can state that there is absolutely no interest here in reviving the Desert Wind. 

Chuck

I don't understand why a good alternate method of transport as a good rapid speed {90-110}, mph train wouldn't be desirable for the LV - L A route.....A straight shot and it wouldn't take that long to do it.  i'm not talking about exotic Mag-lev, etc....just a modern rapid passenger train on conventional {good}, rails.....

GN_Fan:

UP at the time required a 20 mile double tracking of Cima Hill to avoid conjestion, AMTK agreed, and an EIS was started and favorably completed

Again it is the old problem: Equipment. Stimulus money or the proposed tax credit could probably build the double track of Cima Hill but getting and allocating any rolling stock is a long term problem. Conventional equipment probably 7 - 10 years and Talgo - tilt not at all unless a FRA waiver on crash worthyness is obtained. Everywhere it is getting the equipment. To fill present trains and initiate just some of the proposed trains will need to double the amount of equipment.

Modelcar:

I don't understand why a good alternate method of transport as a good rapid speed {90-110}, mph train wouldn't be desirable for the LV - L A route.....A straight shot and it wouldn't take that long to do it.

Maybe I'm looking at a different map - one that has a couple of mountain passes and some horribly congested places.  BNSF isn't redoing Cajon because they have some extra money and nothing better to do with it.  And, have you been to Barstow, where Cajon traffic and Tehachapi traffic merge?

Once north of Barstow, the UP route is no prize.  Think roller coaster in the approximate heart of noplace.  Plus, it has substantial freight traffic on a single-track railroad.  It would take a good (expensive) shoehorn to make room for anything more than token passenger ops.

 

  i'm not talking about exotic Mag-lev, etc....just a modern rapid passenger train on conventional {good}, rails.....

Don't get me wrong.  I, personally, would LOVE to have rail service from Sin City to the LA basin.  I would also love to own a Lear jet...

Chuck

tomikawaTT:

Maybe I'm looking at a different map - one that has a couple of mountain passes and some horribly congested places.  BNSF isn't redoing Cajon because they have some extra money and nothing better to do with it.  And, have you been to Barstow, where Cajon traffic and Tehachapi traffic merge?

......No, I'm sure your map is ok.....No illusions.....and I certainly don't mean to minimize Cajon trackage and terrain.  But doesn't the Interstate have to get thru the same general area.....I'm simply implying a modern passenger train operation most likely {with some expenditures where needed}, could make a good rapid {overall}, run between the two cities.  I suppose the new 3 tracks over Cajon would now be an improvement to getting thru there a bit quicker.  Surely, a good operation could make that run competitive with the interstate travel.

Modelcar:

tomikawaTT:

Maybe I'm looking at a different map - one that has a couple of mountain passes and some horribly congested places.  BNSF isn't redoing Cajon because they have some extra money and nothing better to do with it.  And, have you been to Barstow, where Cajon traffic and Tehachapi traffic merge?

......No, I'm sure your map is ok.....No illusions.....and I certainly don't mean to minimize Cajon trackage and terrain.  But doesn't the Interstate have to get thru the same general area.....I'm simply implying a modern passenger train operation most likely {with some expenditures where needed}, could make a good rapid {overall}, run between the two cities.  I suppose the new 3 tracks over Cajon would now be an improvement to getting thru there a bit quicker.  Surely, a good operation could make that run competitive with the interstate travel.

 

The problem with 110 mph is trying to intermix it with freight trains moving much slower on the same main track.  Either the passenger trains don't attain schedule, or the freight trains are parked in sidings far too long.  The reason for double-tracking Cima Hill -- 17 miles of 2.2% -- was solely because the freight trains are moving at 25 mph or less, and the passenger trains at 70-79 mph.   A pair of 110-mph passenger trains daily on a 25-train a day freight railway, with the freight trains moving at 35-40 mph average, and an 8,000' siding every 10 miles, might get away with as little as some second main track on the steep hills.  Increase the passenger train volume to 4 trains a day each way and the passenger operation will essentially need its own main track (no freight) with its own sidings (no freight), in order for both freight and passenger to maintain schedules.  Also, the maintenance cost for a main track that is both good for 110 mph AND handles heavy axle-load freight trains is very high.

The biggest capacity problem for a passenger railway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas is not Cajon, or Cima, or Afton Canyon -- it's the LA Basin itself, between San Bernardino and Los Angeles. 

RWM

 <Also, years ago there was considerable press about a MAGLEV from LA-LV in the early 90's, but the Bush admin said ZERO funds for it, and since no private funding was avaiable, it was shelved also. >

 I can answer this one.  The city of Anaheim (where I live) is planning a major intermodal transportation center near Anaheim Stadium.  The current station will be torn down and new structure(s) built a short distance away.  The new center wil have stations for Amtrak, Metrolink, a rail connection to Disneyland, and connections to downtown Anaheim and a direct connection to the Anaheim Hills Metrolink station.  Not to mention the local buses and the planned California High Speed Rail system.  Ambitious isn't it?  But, except for the high speed rail, not impossible at all with current financing if they would make better use of the already existing rail infrastructure.

 Then there are the dreams of the current mayor, Curt Pringle.  He is a pretty good mayor but he has a bug in his ear about monorails and Maglev trains and he won't give up on them.  He wants the link from the above station to Disneyland to be a monorail.along city streets.  OK that might fly since it would match the Disney monorail but I think that ordinary light rail would be more practical.  See the San Diego trolley system.

His is a big enthusiast for a Maglev train to Vegas, a really bad idea, IMO.  The technology is not ready.  The Japanese have been working on it for decades.  The Germans are still experimenting.  The Chinese tried German technology and are now suing the German company because the damned thing keeps catching fire.  And the cost of the guideways all the way to Vegas would be astronomical.

I know that the CA High Speed rail people have advised Pringle that casting the dice on a brand new unproven technology (maglev) is a bad idea.  They favor French train technology and Japanese anti-earthquake measures.

I think that is the source of the rumors and the dumb statement by Louisiana Gov. Jindal.  They have heard of Pringle's monomania and have tied it in to the Obama stimulus package.

Jack

 Railway man >> The biggest capacity problem for a passenger railway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas is not Cajon, or Cima, or Afton Canyon -- it's the LA Basin itself, between San Bernardino and Los Angeles.

Jack > I don't know about that.  Remember that the Vegas train, as now planned by Anaheim Mayor Pringl, runs from Anaheim to Vegas.  Even if extended to LA, that puts it on the BNSF Transcon, which already handles 54 to 56 passenger trains a weekday (both ways) between LA and Fullerton.  From Fullerton to Riverside or San Bernardino there are only 18 passenger trains a weekday.  I doubt that 2 or 4 more trains a day would seriously impact capacity.  The Transcon between Fullerton and San Berdoo is a mixture of double, triple, and quaduple track.

I could even see two routes, one from Anaheim, one from LA direct.  The LA train could use the old UP tracks through Pomona to West Riverside where they join the BNSF.  The Anaheim section just gets on the Transcon in north Orange County.  Both stop in San Berdoo to pick up Inland Empire gamblers.  The LA train could stop in Covina or Baldwin Park to serve the San Gabriel Valley.

 Jack

Jack, the cheap capacity in the LA Basin has all been built.  It may not seem like much to put two or four more trains there, but it will be very expensive no matter which route is used.  There is no slack capacity on any route, and adding two or four more trains will result in serious reliability problems for passenger and delays for freight.

RWM

blue streak 1:

Again it is the old problem: Equipment. Stimulus money or the proposed tax credit could probably build the double track of Cima Hill but getting and allocating any rolling stock is a long term problem. Conventional equipment probably 7 - 10 years and Talgo - tilt not at all unless a FRA waiver on crash worthyness is obtained. Everywhere it is getting the equipment. To fill present trains and initiate just some of the proposed trains will need to double the amount of equipment.

So, why does passenger equipment take so long? Because I've heard of this problem before. I'm just wondering why.

Hi Jack --

I rode the Desert Wind from Fullerton to Las Vegas and back a few times  - Amtrak ran it at the time (late 80's, early 90's) with an F40PH and five Superliner cars.  It was one round-trip a day, and operated as part of the CZ that split at Ogden. (with another split section to Portland)  It was no speed contest, that's for sure - back in those days I-15 was just two lanes each way north of Victorville (once you got over Cajon Pass), but even still, you could drive the route in about 5 hours.  But the highway was pretty much a straight shot (almost a straight line, as the crow flys), and you could consistantly drive at 65 or (much) better. Certain times (then and now) are much heavier in terms of traffic (Friday afternoons toward Vegas, Sunday afternoons toward LA), but week days, even with all the big rigs, are not too painful (other than the construction zones). 

Amtrak, via ATSF to Daggett, and then UP to Vegas, was a fairly slow trip.  I never remember any significant delays, but at the time, both routes had lots of single track, plus the grades (Cajon of course, plus Cima hill), plus lots of freight traffic.   The station stops alone at San Bernardino, Victorville and Barstow added at least 30 minutes, and there were long stretches of slow speeds (getting through San Bernardino for example).  When the train could, they made track speed (Victorville to Barstow), which was nice, it showed what the trip could have been like.  I have no knowledge of the rest of the trip between SLC and Vegas, but it was all single track over the UP.

"They" have been talking about High Speed rail (Mag Lev / Talgo / Seperate ROW, etc.) for decades between Anaheim and Vegas or LAX and Vegas or some such.  All it will take is a great deal of cash - enough for the row, construction, equipment, shutting up and moving the NIMBYs, etc, etc, etc...  I won't hold my breath for any of it.

 Gary

The AMTRK version of the "Desert Wind" came off about the same time as #'s 25 and 26 (the "Pioneer" wich ran from Seattle via Portland to Salt Lake City (and later, via the "Portland Rose" route from Portland to Denver).  Politics.

Pioneer was started first with the birth of AMTK and was pulled off when the Desert Wind was for political reasons due to funding being refused by Washington,DC.  The Pioneer at that time termindated in Salt Lake City and made connections both ways with the Zepher and the Wind.  Later the Pioneer was reinstated routed via UP on the O-Dub, OSL and UP turning South at Chyenne to Denver.  After a time, AMTK wanted to rout it via Ogden and add as many as 50 AMTK BOX to it, they said, to make it pay.  This last ploy was in direct violation of the AMTK charter and UP forced AMTK to cancel the train if anything but cars used for the express purposess of carrying passengers were put on the train.  Since Washington would not provide adequate funding without the Express Box provision and Idaho and Oregon did not want to fund the train, it was pulled off.

The TALGO cars mentioned elsewhere are the ones operating between Vancouver, BC and Eugene Oregon.  The State of Oregon owns two sets and the State of Washington owns the balance and the equip the "CASCADES".  Given the current economic situation, I would think that funding for these trains is in jepordy.  They are usually well filled, normally on time.