Locomotives

 

edbenton:

Just to add I asked a friend of mine that is an engineer for CAT in their engine devolpment department he is one of the guys that has to come up with the crap that has to help the engines meet the standards that EPA throws at them.  They took a 645 and 710 since they do compete with them in the marine industry and wanted to see if they could be made to MEET the tier 3 and 4 emisson standards the 645 failed at 3 and 4 the 710 barely made 3 by leaning her out so much she had issues with with reliabliaty at full power and could not be made to meet 4 even with intercooling and every trick cat tried.  Simply put there is no way you can make a 2 stroke meet the future standards coming up.  The era of the 2 stroke is done very soon.

EMD still has the 265H up their sleeves, despite disappointment with the SD90MAC.  Maybe sometime in the next several years EMD will be coming out with a SD89ACe. 

CAT has enough problems of their own with out getting into the EMD parts business. The 2 stroke engines principle problem is at low loads with lube oil carry over. Their are railroad tests in conjunction with Southwest Research going on using after treatment catalysts that look promising. Is it possible to get any info on exactly what CAT tried as in a engineering report or is this a product of their rumor mill. Their 3500 series engine has done very well in the low horsepower range in sales. I hears to many times that the sell new engines very cheap then make it up on parts sales to the point that the owner is better off buying a new engine and stripping it for parts. They also lock in a deal by very favorable rates and include a service contract and probably extended warranty to cover all the parts they'll need. The for sure EMD replacement program engine the larger 3600 seems to be success in export sales too much maintenance for domestic use. As for the 265H engine EMD doesn't seem to have the money to up grade it to tier 2 level and sales for power products can support it so my guess they will sell the whole thing to the Chinese. I am curious as to why CAT was interested in the 645 engine since its out of production but all of the parts developed for the 710 like piston rings and fuel injectors will work on the 645. California is behind this and are after the foreign shipping companies. I suspect that those companies might be switching to friendlier ports in Mexico and Canada. Not as many lawyers there to sue you when their pilot wrecks your ship.

Democrats tell us "Big Business" is an evil accolyte of the Republicans. Yet GE is fully on board with Obama and the "Climate Change" hysteria. (Did you notice it's not "Global Warming" anymore...either colder or warmer, its just bad and its all YOUR fault, you ugly Americans!)

 GE loves "Climate Change." It will allow them to replace every old loco, powerplant, and light bulb with a brand new GEVO/hybrid, GE Windmill, GE reactor, or GE flouresant light bulb, all at a substantialy higher price than what they replace.

Big Business loves Big Government. Small business is killed by Big Governement. Bye-Bye short lines, bye-bye Mom and Pop truckers. And I'll make a gentleman's bet...bye-bye EMD road switchers.

I have read recently (in TRAINS) that UP is experimenting with upgraded emission control equipment on an MP15. I know it includes a particle emissions filter system and some sort of additional exhaust treatment adapted from industrial/marine apllication. IIRC, they were trying to meet Tier III compliance..

nody:

Democrats tell us "Big Business" is an evil accolyte of the Republicans. Yet GE is fully on board with Obama and the "Climate Change" hysteria. (Did you notice it's not "Global Warming" anymore...either colder or warmer, its just bad and its all YOUR fault, you ugly Americans!)

 GE loves "Climate Change." It will allow them to replace every old loco, powerplant, and light bulb with a brand new GEVO/hybrid, GE Windmill, GE reactor, or GE flouresant light bulb, all at a substantialy higher price than what they replace.

Big Business loves Big Government. Small business is killed by Big Governement. Bye-Bye short lines, bye-bye Mom and Pop truckers. And I'll make a gentleman's bet...bye-bye EMD road switchers.

  Of course EMD would love to sell as many 710 ECO repowering packages as they can as well, so there will still be Geeps about...that sort of regulatory requirement is obv. much harder on smaller operators.

Interesting that CAT would be looking at EMD engines, but not unexpected. CAT is most probably looking at buying EMD so it can expend and get into the rail business. It has already purchased the other mob but buying EMD would get them right into the business, not just the fringe where they are now. I expect looking at the EMD engines would be research to see if they are worth buying and of course if they have done something CAT couldn't do. The best way to expend market share is to buy the opposition. I am surprised the 2 stroke design has survived as long as it has, but as engines go there is nothing wrong with them, just the green movement has caught up with them. I was talking with an engineer from Detroit/Daimler/MTA at a truck show, and he said the two stroke idea could be improved, however it had been decided some time ago to go 4 stroke, hence the 60 series truck engines ( about the same time as the 60 series loco's!!!! ). Cat has gotten out of the on road truck engine business all together, so it has put emissions into the 'too hard' basket, but it will have to get into it sooner or later, as everything will have to conform. The truck industry will find it hard, but American trucks aren't built to last very long so they will be replaced quickly with newer trucks that are compliant, and the industry will settle down. The big operators will buy new and carry on and the consumer will pay for it. The rail industry being a much smaller volume industry will conform but on a slower rate, and being more efficient than road transport will be allowed to evolve slower. EMD I feel has been a victim of their own success, building locomotives that last too long and can be rebuilt cheaply, ( plus a parent suffering from it's own problems ) thus the market for new ones is small. The emissions game might help them if they get it right, as everything will have to be replaced, similar to the diesel boom that took over from steam. If they don't, will CAT take them over or will they outsource possibly to someone like Cummins, which only build engines, and has to be innovative to survive. GMS

GMS-AU:

Interesting that CAT would be looking at EMD engines, but not unexpected. CAT is most probably looking at buying EMD so it can expend and get into the rail business. It has already purchased the other mob but buying EMD would get them right into the business, not just the fringe where they are now. I expect looking at the EMD engines would be research to see if they are worth buying and of course if they have done something CAT couldn't do. The best way to expend market share is to buy the opposition. I am surprised the 2 stroke design has survived as long as it has, but as engines go there is nothing wrong with them, just the green movement has caught up with them. I was talking with an engineer from Detroit/Daimler/MTA at a truck show, and he said the two stroke idea could be improved, however it had been decided some time ago to go 4 stroke, hence the 60 series truck engines ( about the same time as the 60 series loco's!!!! ). Cat has gotten out of the on road truck engine business all together, so it has put emissions into the 'too hard' basket, but it will have to get into it sooner or later, as everything will have to conform. The truck industry will find it hard, but American trucks aren't built to last very long so they will be replaced quickly with newer trucks that are compliant, and the industry will settle down. The big operators will buy new and carry on and the consumer will pay for it. The rail industry being a much smaller volume industry will conform but on a slower rate, and being more efficient than road transport will be allowed to evolve slower. EMD I feel has been a victim of their own success, building locomotives that last too long and can be rebuilt cheaply, ( plus a parent suffering from it's own problems ) thus the market for new ones is small. The emissions game might help them if they get it right, as everything will have to be replaced, similar to the diesel boom that took over from steam. If they don't, will CAT take them over or will they outsource possibly to someone like Cummins, which only build engines, and has to be innovative to survive. GMS

 

 GM of course sold EMD before it got into the deep muck it is in now...

CAT did try to buy EMD from GM and the labor union which represents the London, Ont. plant shot the deal down (CAT has had a history of labor problems at it's own plants, though I'm not interested in a political debate about unions).

When Greenbriar (with Berkshire Hathaway) purchased EMD their stated business plan was to improve the company and then sell it to a larger manufacturer (prob. they were thinking of CAT or BOMBARDIER) within 5-10 years.

 As far as EMD being a "victim of their own success" I don't think that the rebuilding old units versus buying new ones conundrum is such an issue with high horsepower road locomotives, it is in secondary service and EMD has lots of competition in that market segment..

carnej1:

GM of course sold EMD before it got into the deep muck it is in now...

CAT did try to buy EMD from GM and the labor union which represents the London, Ont. plant shot the deal down (CAT has had a history of labor problems at it's own plants, though I'm not interested in a political debate about unions).

When Greenbriar (with Berkshire Hathaway) purchased EMD their stated business plan was to improve the company and then sell it to a larger manufacturer (prob. they were thinking of CAT or BOMBARDIER) within 5-10 years.

 As far as EMD being a "victim of their own success" I don't think that the rebuilding old units versus buying new ones conundrum is such an issue with high horsepower road locomotives, it is in secondary service and EMD has lots of competition in that market segment..

 

Careful don't confuse Berkshire Partners, with Berkshire Hathaway, they are two different groups. It is Berkshire Partners that is one of the owners of EMD, not Berkshire Hathaway (Buffet).