Hello,
Question about ceiling suspended layouts. I remember my neighbor had an old 4x8 he hung from his ceiling with cables and pulleys.
I was thinking of doing a 12x16 layout with cables and powered winches. Once the Layout is up near the ceiling, secure it to eye bolts into the ceiling/floor joists and when the layout is lowered stand it up on removable (modular like legs) thus the only time the layout is actually "hanging" from the cables is during lowing and raising.
This may be easy with a flat plywood layout, But I was wanting to do open grid construction with L-girders.
So How would I be able to mount 4 or 6 cables, ropes or chains to the bench work? I mean if it was a 12x16 chunk of plywood that was braced under neath (with operation hole in center) I could see it working. Yet the open grid and L girder types of construction, basically only work from floor mounted legs? correct? How would I do such a layout with open bench work and distribute the weight to 4 or 6 hard points?
I have spoken to my home builder and he is sure we can build a support structure to suspend the layout from multiple ceiling joists or even the Lam-beam that holds up the house. I have spoken with My engineer bother-in-law who assures me we can work out a powered winch system, I am sure we can attach the layout to the ceiling with chains and large eye bolts when not in use and use multiple removable, yet secure legs when in use to take "pressure off " the raising and lowering system.
I would try to use foam for scenery and I would not burden do the layout with heavy items, yet at the same time I know, track, ballast, trains, wiring, scenery all adds up in weight.
Am I crazy?
I have a two car garage, yet we park the cars in the garage and there is all the "overhead space"
I am open to any, any suggestions, comments, criticisms or ideas, please I have been playing with this Idea for 3 years and my trains just keep sitting in boxes.
First - how high is your garage ceiling, and how much else (door tracks, door opener...) is in the way? L-girder benchwork is at least 6 inches thick (mine, built of steel studs of adequate capacity.) Then there's subgrade, roadbed, rails, rolling stock, buildings, landforms... Not to mention enough clearance for the lifting cables and their pullies. Unless you can devote 30 inches to the layout and still have adequate (as in, standing straight up wearing Sir Topham's hat...) overhead clearance, this might be a non-starter.
Second - the place to attach lift cables to L-girder benchwork is at the same place where legs would be attached, not to the extreme outside edges. If you can figure out how to support your 12 x 16 table on six legs, you will have figured out how to lift it, level, with six hoist points.
Third - can your ceiling structure support the weight of a suspended layout? Mine couldn't (bottom chords of roof trusses, 2 x 4s butt-jointed with tack plates..) Adding support beams above the ceiling might be possible. Adding them below the ceiling will take a bite out of your overhead clearance.
In spite of the above, there have been successful 'hung from the garage ceiling' layouts. John Armstrong even included one in one of his layout books. If you crank in the potential problems and still come out a winner, go for it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on a non-lifting double garage filler)
wow great stuff, Chuck, I'll go get the tape measure out tonight.
I have clearance on the garage door track, main garage door, ( 2 ) human entry doors. I have to factor in the over all height of the ceiling and the how far down any completed layout would hang down, I will toy with your suggestion on 30 inches, I did want a couple grades so I may need more over all height for the layout, resulting is less overhead clearance.
And it sounds like I'd need a system to distribute the weight of the layout to as much of the ceiling as possible, I am pretty sure I have some extra room, so I could do it below the ceiling.
I may have been far off to say I could support a 12x16 on six legs, thats sounds a bit unsteady. It might actually take alot more than that.
But I do appreciate your remarks, It really got me thinking on some points I hadn't considered.
Larry;
My opinion, it is doable. Here is one way it's been done... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwe0Brt0mOY
Slot cars, Trains, not much difference. (there both hobbies right?) You may also want to think about folding or hinged legs rather than multible removeable.
The guy in the video looks to have some money, I don't know your situation, but it sounds like you have plenty of structural help. (Engineer, Builder)
I thought it may give you some good info to get you started, or at least thinking.
Oh Yeah, Welcome to the forum, you've come to the right place.
John
This comes up every few months. Here's what I wrote the last time:
I've seen a couple of layouts built this way. The discussion of the topic in John Armstrong's book Creative Layout Design (Kalmbach 1978, out of print) is the most thorough. There was also a good article on a large layout built in this fashion in Model Railroader, June 1977, page 52: "The Midland Valley RR, hanging layout in 3 car garage " by Jim Hediger. Some key points: - Keeping the framework as stiff as possible, trading off vs. weight, is important. - Whatever you use to raise/lower the frame, it needs to be set up to keep the frame level if you want to leave trains on it. This is a big issue in the size you are contemplating.- Using a counterweight system that allows you to incrementally add bricks, blocks, sandbags, etc. to offset the increased weight as you add scenery and such is a good option. That way, one person or a low-horsepower motor can always easily raise or lower the frame. I have seen fairly large layouts manually lifted with one hand (literally) -- now that's impressive! - But as you add weight, keep in mind the suspension point(s) from the ceiling. As things get heavier, you may run into challenges there, because with a counterweight system, one is doubling the total weight on the suspension point(s). Good luck -- this is a major engineering project and might be a lot of challenge for one's first layout.ByronModel RR Blog
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Even with my suspended 4x8 stiftness is critical. On a large layout as you propose the engineering will be significant it you hoist it in one piece. You might look at the layout geometry and consider detachable sections that can be lifted separately. Dowel pins and clamps to align the modules would be less of a problem than hoisting the whole thing together. Another possibility would be to build an elevated layout with movable elevated floor sections which could double as storage chests.
Just a couple of thoughts to consider.
Geohan
This idea has been discussed several times already. Years ago (probably early 70's) MR did a feature article on a two car garage railroad that was attached to cables and coffee cans filled with scrap around the room so little effort was needed to raise or lower it. I would think pulling it down and having the weight take it back up would prevent the railroad creeping onto your SUV or convertible roof some morning. . I doubt the weight of a model railroad is of significance as a roof is built to take two sets of shingles at 100# per square plus the requisit moisture load for the area (here in the north that's called snow). The layout I remember had drop down legs similar to a card table but the most important feature was a pair of 1x4 boards that tied the railroad to the walls to prevent horizontal movement when operating. Biggest factor for any garage layout will be dust and dirt control.
for legs use the collapsable ones found on card tables. i know how you can get it all done, but i don't know how to do it to hide it. but one word. eyebolts. i've seen them before, used to screw into wood for what ever. now i'm not sure how to describe all this because of all the open gride and L-grider talk, have no clue what that is, but the eye bolts would need i'd say a good 4x4 block to mount into. it's big enough to hold the weight and still provie enough material to mount the block to the framework. i'd say get the eyebolts in actual bolts and bolt them through a hole drilled in the block, i'd put more trust in that then the screw ones which would just screw into a pre-drill pilot hole (not all the way through the block). the 4x4 block i would say min. 4 good size wood screws on every face that frame work touches the block, and a very good wood glue. have the same eye bolts mounted in the ceiling and when the layouts lifted all the way up, use some heavy duty caribeeners that just clip into place. have them pointing down so the open end faces the layout, easier to attach. get the good ones that have the screw on sleeve over the little clippy part. as for lifting, ooh kinda trickey. how to describe this. the pulleys would have to be mounted to some strong brackets. steel cable attached to the layout someone how (gimme time on that one) looped over the pulleys, to a back wall. all the cables will vary in length, but should be even. the cables should then attach to some bracket, i'd say a piece of L-shapped angle iron so then the steel cables can use loop ends and just bolt on. then get a manual boat winch mounted to the wall so that the racheting happens when you raise it up, then if something brakes like a cable the rachets click on and it doesn't come crashing down, attached the boat winch cable to main bracket with all the sepperate cables attached and there ya go. the steel cables to the layout could just go throught holes in a plywood bed surface and bolt to the framing with the steel cables having loop ends. some things would hafta be worked out, like the pulley mounting (very strong brackets) and how they mounted like the one person said before.
i was going to suggest make it like a murphy bed, just pull it down, but then i read a thread that said it was in the garage. sorry for such a long post.
I used 1/8" steel cables, a boat winch, 2x6" lumber for supports, angle iron lag bolted to the ceiling,and eyebolts in the edge of the layout (6' x 8', 2" foam on 1/4" ply, framed with 1x2" firing strips, 2x4 for support for the legs)
Bob Casey
oh my lord, so much information! ***. (OR DARN!) not sure about the profanity limits here.
I thank you all so much I will respond to each one of you. I have re-measured and I am thinking more like 10x16 now, I did not account for cabinets and doors needing to be opened while lay-out was down and the 30" or so ceiling clearance.
I am still pouring over the wealth of info that has been given to me and I will be following up with each of you one by one.
thanks again. LPB
johnny.5 Larry; My opinion, it is doable. Here is one way it's been done... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwe0Brt0mOY Slot cars, Trains, not much difference. (there both hobbies right?) You may also want to think about folding or hinged legs rather than multible removeable. The guy in the video looks to have some money, I don't know your situation, but it sounds like you have plenty of structural help. (Engineer, Builder) I thought it may give you some good info to get you started, or at least thinking. Oh Yeah, Welcome to the forum, you've come to the right place. John
Wow! This guys really got a sweet design. very nice, thanks for sharing that. I hope I can get something even half as good as that. I will study the lift system and counter balance weights as that seems to be my biggest obstacle, the engineering side of it all. I have been re-thinking the overall size and type of construction, for this project
cuyama This comes up every few months. Here's what I wrote the last time: I've seen a couple of layouts built this way. The discussion of the topic in John Armstrong's book Creative Layout Design (Kalmbach 1978, out of print) is the most thorough. There was also a good article on a large layout built in this fashion in Model Railroader, June 1977, page 52: "The Midland Valley RR, hanging layout in 3 car garage " by Jim Hediger. Some key points: - Keeping the framework as stiff as possible, trading off vs. weight, is important. - Whatever you use to raise/lower the frame, it needs to be set up to keep the frame level if you want to leave trains on it. This is a big issue in the size you are contemplating.- Using a counterweight system that allows you to incrementally add bricks, blocks, sandbags, etc. to offset the increased weight as you add scenery and such is a good option. That way, one person or a low-horsepower motor can always easily raise or lower the frame. I have seen fairly large layouts manually lifted with one hand (literally) -- now that's impressive! - But as you add weight, keep in mind the suspension point(s) from the ceiling. As things get heavier, you may run into challenges there, because with a counterweight system, one is doubling the total weight on the suspension point(s). Good luck -- this is a major engineering project and might be a lot of challenge for one's first layout.ByronModel RR Blog
I will try to look up those mentioned articles, thanks for pin-pointing them.
I appreciate the points you laid out, I think I am Going to try a ceiling suspended layout, just might try to cut back on the bench work though and keep that more simple and concentrate on the overall size, lifting system and distribution of weight, not sure if the open bench work or L-girder construction is really necessary at this point, I mean I can get away with something more simple to start, then build a dream layout once I know the system will work. Kinda like a beat layout for a few years, than construct the full blown open grid style after the kinks have been worked out of the first layout. I dont know I am starting to get very confused.
bobwhittenIf you are determined and not afraid of failing once or twice, go for it. There is nothing worse than collecting trains & kits while waiting to build a layout. We all learn by failing but have fun doing so. Bob Whitten Email: bobandbonnie@earthlink.net
I have been thinking not to go so big on my first attempt, and scale it down a bit. Maybe not L- girder but try foam? instead, making it lighter. I mean still do some wood frame work construction for the structural aspect to provide strength for the layout and lowering and raising, but the bulk of the layout with foam base?
Geohan Even with my suspended 4x8 stiftness is critical. On a large layout as you propose the engineering will be significant it you hoist it in one piece. You might look at the layout geometry and consider detachable sections that can be lifted separately. Dowel pins and clamps to align the modules would be less of a problem than hoisting the whole thing together. Another possibility would be to build an elevated layout with movable elevated floor sections which could double as storage chests. Just a couple of thoughts to consider. Geohan
I am thinking 10x 16, two sections is a good Idea. I will keep that in mind, thanks. I can not do an elevated layout, but that is also a great thought, thanks.
ndbprr This idea has been discussed several times already. Years ago (probably early 70's) MR did a feature article on a two car garage railroad that was attached to cables and coffee cans filled with scrap around the room so little effort was needed to raise or lower it. I would think pulling it down and having the weight take it back up would prevent the railroad creeping onto your SUV or convertible roof some morning. . I doubt the weight of a model railroad is of significance as a roof is built to take two sets of shingles at 100# per square plus the requisit moisture load for the area (here in the north that's called snow). The layout I remember had drop down legs similar to a card table but the most important feature was a pair of 1x4 boards that tied the railroad to the walls to prevent horizontal movement when operating. Biggest factor for any garage layout will be dust and dirt control.
Yes I have seen in MR years ago and my childhood neighbor also had a 4x8 that he raised and lowered from the ceiling which is where I got the idea. I appreciate all your information and will defiantly look into drop down legs and a mechanism to tie the layout to the walls to prevent horizontal movement. I keep my garage pretty clean, but I was thinking of having some type of a way to cover the layout if need be.
MILW-RODR for legs use the collapsable ones found on card tables. i know how you can get it all done, but i don't know how to do it to hide it. but one word. eyebolts. i've seen them before, used to screw into wood for what ever. now i'm not sure how to describe all this because of all the open gride and L-grider talk, have no clue what that is, but the eye bolts would need i'd say a good 4x4 block to mount into. it's big enough to hold the weight and still provie enough material to mount the block to the framework. i'd say get the eyebolts in actual bolts and bolt them through a hole drilled in the block, i'd put more trust in that then the screw ones which would just screw into a pre-drill pilot hole (not all the way through the block). the 4x4 block i would say min. 4 good size wood screws on every face that frame work touches the block, and a very good wood glue. have the same eye bolts mounted in the ceiling and when the layouts lifted all the way up, use some heavy duty caribeeners that just clip into place. have them pointing down so the open end faces the layout, easier to attach. get the good ones that have the screw on sleeve over the little clippy part. as for lifting, ooh kinda trickey. how to describe this. the pulleys would have to be mounted to some strong brackets. steel cable attached to the layout someone how (gimme time on that one) looped over the pulleys, to a back wall. all the cables will vary in length, but should be even. the cables should then attach to some bracket, i'd say a piece of L-shapped angle iron so then the steel cables can use loop ends and just bolt on. then get a manual boat winch mounted to the wall so that the racheting happens when you raise it up, then if something brakes like a cable the rachets click on and it doesn't come crashing down, attached the boat winch cable to main bracket with all the sepperate cables attached and there ya go. the steel cables to the layout could just go throught holes in a plywood bed surface and bolt to the framing with the steel cables having loop ends. some things would hafta be worked out, like the pulley mounting (very strong brackets) and how they mounted like the one person said before. i was going to suggest make it like a murphy bed, just pull it down, but then i read a thread that said it was in the garage. sorry for such a long post.
good stuff, have read this post 4 times now and still digesting it all, love the note about boat winch and the ratchets and stopping it all from coming crashing down. I was thinking eye-bolts to attach (secure) it to the ceiling once raised, sounds like you are saying eye bolts on the layout as well to attached the layout to the lifting cables. still working your thoughts into the over all plan, thanks!
bc@thecove I used 1/8" steel cables, a boat winch, 2x6" lumber for supports, angle iron lag bolted to the ceiling,and eyebolts in the edge of the layout (6' x 8', 2" foam on 1/4" ply, framed with 1x2" firing strips, 2x4 for support for the legs)
wow. thats pretty close to everything I was thinking, did you just wing it on your own? or did you have a plan? do you have a picture of the layout while its deployed (set up to run) with your track plan.
love the pictures, thanks for all the ideas. great stuff.