General Discussion (Model Railroader)

Stein, that's a nice little track plan you've got there! Did you make that up yourself, or did you get it from somewhere else? I'm gonna have to copy that and use it as a starting point for a future room-sized layout (we're always designing that future layout, aren't we? )

I like the look of this one:

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=1447

It has the overall feel of what I'd be comfortable with. Again, it's up to me but IF this is something I did, I'm wondering if it would bore me and not be worth the effort. Dunno

Yeah I know guys...."Well why did you ask us then?" 

I currently have a 2'x14' shelf layout in HO and I have a lot of fun with it.  Just running a train doesn't do it for me; I belong to a club which is mostly "circle burning" which got old very quickly.  My layout at home is an inner-city switching layout which will be expanded later.  I get cars on and off the layout via cassette staging at one end.  Even when phase two is complete (2x20 along one wall), I still plan on using cassettes at interchanges even though I will have lower-level staging.  It keeps the same cars in the same order from showing up on the layout.  So my freight cars do have a "place to go" just like on the prototype.  I still get my running long trains "fix" by operating on the club layout.  You may want to consider joining a club that would have long runs for long trains and then build a smaller layout at home which you could run trains on when you can't run trains at the club.

In the end, having fun is all that matters.  If you are dead set on having long trains running on a mainline in only 10 or 12 feet, you may need to look at N or Z scale to get what you want.  I'm thinking Z scale would give you the most running for the amount of space you have. 

Chuck

see the progress (or lack of progress) of the Detroit Connecting at www.freewebs.com/detroitconnecting

norfolk23:

I like the look of this one:

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=1447

We had a good discussion of that layout a while back on this fourm:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/133130/1496649.aspx#1496649

It is a well done layout, but there are a couple of small changes that would make it more engaging to operate that I discussed in that thread. I won't repeat the rationale (you can read it on the earlier thread), but here's the slightly revised track plan

norfolk23:

Again, it's up to me but IF this is something I did, I'm wondering if it would bore me and not be worth the effort. Dunno

Yeah I know guys...."Well why did you ask us then?" 

There are countless threads on this forum where people are asking questions only they can answer.

Is it a switching layout or no layout at all? Seems like a no-brainer. Even if you decide you are not happy with it in the long term, you will have gained valuable skills and experience. If you look at Jonathan Jones' article on this layout, which was a prize winner published in the May 2001 Model Railroader, you'll see that a layout like this can have great modeling and be very appealing. Build the benchwork in sections, as he did, and you can even use it as part of a larger layout someday. (Although I believe he is building a new layout now, but in N scale this time).

Byron
Model RR Blog

norfolk23

Build, build, build! One of the great things about a small shelf layout is that the costs are kept low with minimal lumber, ply, foam, track, stock and scenery so there's little to lose.

My 16' x 1' Peach Valley RR has an 11' scenic area and 5' of staging. Modeling the 1950's means short trains of six or seven cars (about 44" in length) is quite feasible. Remember that the human eye likes to split things up into twos and threes, and has trouble after two such groups. This means a train with an engine and six cars will look "long".

The key is not to have too much track - too many switching / shelf plans show masses of lines and switches. Keep it simple. I have five switches on the main section, but the plan was carefully considered to actually make switching more difficult.

Use a fast clock and waycards to keep the pressure on you to get jobs done by a certain time and limit the speed engines can travel to make matters worse!

Ian 

My "shelf" layout is currently an "L" shape roughly 12' x 12' using 16" wide John Sterling shelving with uprights screwed into the wall. For now it's a switching layout, using Kato Unitrack - no. 6 turnouts and 31" min radius throughout.  I added a switch in what will be my staging yard to make a run around track, and added some flats as industries and a team track, and work it like a switching layout. There's also a coal trestle "around the corner" on the other part of the L. Right now I have five sites to switch, each getting one or two cars at a time, plus a two-track engine service area with a one-stall enginehouse.

Eventually the layout is going to expand around the walls to make sort of a big capital "C" shape, with the staging yard at one end and an iron ore yard at the other, with an ore dock. Operations will mainly be switching cars to and from the ore dock, and making up and breaking up ore trains that run to/from staging.

The final stage will have a "blob" added to the ore yard end, adding about 4' of width to allow for a turntable, roundhouse and engine servicing, but up until that point the whole layout will be 16" wide shelfs. As far as long trains, typical ore trains should be about 28-36 cars in length. (I run them in sets of 4.) From staging to the ore yard will be about one scale mile if I figure correctly; at my typical ore train speed of 12-15 MPH should take about 4-5 minutes to get from staging to the ore dock yard. But as I mentioned the primary focus is breaking down trains, moving loads to the ore dock, bringing back empties, putting together trains of empties to go back to the Range etc.

BTW this is the upper level of a two-deck layout, the lower level will be more oriented toward passenger train operation around the Twin Cities and have a couple of "blobs" to allow for continous running.

norfolk23:

Wondering if those of you that have one were of the same thought process that I am right now. Sort of hesitant because it isn't what I really want, but yet it IS a layout. To build or not to build?

 

Personally, I have found switching puzzles to be quite rewarding, but I certainly can understand your dilemma, as I tend to love watching trains run also. You didn't mention scale, so I would recommend N-scale, as with 2 feet, you can scrunch a loop in there. Yes, it would look ugly if it were seen, but let me share a layout I saw in MR a few years ago--2005, I think. It's called the PRR Middle Division: LINK

The interesting points are as follows:

1. Centers on a single town with lots of scenic potential.

2. Provides mainline running, together with some switching interest

3. Provides a relatively long run for longer trains.

4. Hiding the track as it goes around the curve, you don't see the quite extreme curvature.

5. Staging allows for multiple trains. You can run multiple trains in multiple directions, as well as just let one or two run constantly.

6. I think it fits in your space constraints, and either way, you can use this loosely as your base for creating your own plan.

stokesda:

Stein, that's a nice little track plan you've got there! Did you make that up yourself, or did you get it from somewhere else? I'm gonna have to copy that and use it as a starting point for a future room-sized layout (we're always designing that future layout, aren't we? )

  It is not from a book or published plan, so I guess I could say that it is sorta made up by me, but with massive amounts of very valuable input and advice from a great many posters on these forums.

  By all means - feel free to grab any elements that strikes your fancy for a plan of your own. I have stolen ideas from all over the place.

  You can find a mixed bag of some of the other track plans I have made over time here. Again - if you see anything you like, feel free to grab it, modify it to make it better and build it :-)

 Smile,
 Stein

I had a shelf layout at one time and though the switching was fun I just really missed trains running continuously. My current layout is a variation of the HOGRR (designed by Scott Perry a few years ago) presented in Cudaken's post and with elements similar to the layout  in steinjr's post/drawing. There are quite a few of us from around the country building in this way and we share continuously on the HOG Yahoo group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HOGRR/?yguid=62034599  With this arrangement I get the most, I feel, out of the 9 x 11 ft. room dedicated to the layout. I can incorporate interesting switching with contiuous running using fairly broad curves. I use a liftbridge at the door which while not ideal is, of course, a necessary evil. It has worked out well however. I do feel that this type of layout design is currently emerging and evolving as a real alternative to the linear non-continuous shelf while preserving some of the concepts employed for much larger spaces. In running my small railroad from it's center, my back is to the opposite side much of the time and I can see only one portion. This adds to the illusion of size and separation. In addition to the HOG concept, I also used elements of the fine shelf layouts seen on the following site  http://andrews-trains.fotopic.net/c374578.html  - especially for my industrial area and small yard. All-in-all I am very satisfied with the amount of railroading (especially operations) that is available while preserving the continuous running that I do enjoy.

I model a freelance bridge RR the Missouri & Arkansas Railway used by the CB&Q & MKT that takes place in Eastern Missouri. The line starts out at Old Monroe Mo on the Cuivre River at MO. State Highway 79, then west to Hawk Point then south along MO. State Highway 47 across the old Wabash / Norfolk & Western RR line near Warrenton Mo. thru Missouri Wine Country to connect with MKT near Marthasville Mo. on State Highway 94. Since this is "my" railroad most places will have the "flavor" of this area but may not be perfect to the prototype.  Time is pre Burlington Northern (1970). The location & time frame gives me a lot of room of equipment I can use plus freight cars from so many different Railroads from all over the country. As with many railroads built in the 1800’s they never reached all the way as planned. So they never made it all the way to Arkansas.

Original plans......but I have made a few changes: Dropped one siding on door #1

 

This is Door#1 Hawk Point Mo (looking East) so far.....Still have to finish roads & some scenery.

I've had many layouts over the last 30 years of all types.  It's been my experience that no train really goes anywhere anyway, they all end up back at the starting point.  However much space I had, I always wanted more, and ended up filling it with something that was not very useful in the end.  My current HO shelf layout is the best I've ever had for the following reasons:

1.  I am forced to think very carefuly about every square inch and what goes in it.  Nothing is wasted.  Each move of every train is planned, it has to be.

2.  My shelf is broken into clearly divided scenes by the use of shadowboxes.  I can replicate exactly the industry I want at that scene without worrying about "transitions".  I can simulate day or night independently in each scene.  I can leave the terminal at 12 noon, reach the gravel loader at 5 pm and after dark finish at the interchange, all within 16 real feet of space.

3.  Each scene is separated by about 30 miles in the real world, but only inches on the layout.  Total and absolute control of viewing angles, forced perspectives, lighting and other effects.  Yes, the back end of the train is in the box it just left,  but it's pretend anyway and I don't notice this in actual operation because of the tightly focused viewing.

4.  Operational flexibility.  I can switch if I want to in the end yards, OR I can make up a train and serve industries along the main, OR I can to combos of both, run a through train or special, or whatever I want. 

5.  Prototype fidelity.  Real trains run from point A to point B.

norfolk23:

I don't have a shelf layout, but am considering one. Part of my hesitation is the idea that although I might be able to heavily detail a scene, running trains isn't really running trains on a shelf layout. (At least to me and I'll explain)  

Part of the appeal of model trains for me is watching one go by with a long string of cars behind it. I can't do that on a shelf layout with a 1x10ft, 2x10ft, size etc.  Several track plans I've seen have a main line that runs from one end to the other that theoretically could be expanded at some point. Assume expansion isn't the case and my 2x10 or whatever stays that way for good.

My question is this:  Of those of you who have a shelf layout, do you find yourself content with switching cars around and nothing really "going" anywhere? I know you can be creative and have a way of moving cars in/out of the scene, but you get the idea. Is a layout like this something that you enjoy running or is it something you have because of space, etc. and just live with it?

Wondering if those of you that have one were of the same thought process that I am right now. Sort of hesitant because it isn't what I really want, but yet it IS a layout. To build or not to build?

 

 

 

I have a unique self made shelf design that uses wall shelf supports, and a floor support design that still uses the wall shelf, I just lay the shelf on and have mini clamp on adjusters to raise/lower the shelf, and they get bolted together.

I already have a test loop and soon I will have a test dog bone loop that runs through my Michigan City module once I have all its wiring and switches operational. That makes an excellent testing for the test dog bone and the module I am working on and I will be able to have reasonably long trains on it, but my actual design keeps trains around 20 cars or so for operating sessions, but for individual 1 train running, I'll go nuts and run long trains.

I went shelf style because I dont want to tear apart a layout I worked on so long. Modules keep it intact if I move, and works great when doing closeup work, I pull the module off the layout to a work space and can turn it upside down to work on wiring. No more cranking under the layout to do work.

When I was in the service I built a series of 1x4 module boxes (N scale), along the lines of the self contained bookshelf layouts described in MR in the 70s.  Each box was a town or scene with a closed end to separate the box from the next (and for protection during moves).  I was able to set up the modules around the walls of the room as they best fit, connected by non-scenes, and provided a removable bridge across the door for continuous running.  That lasted me about 15 years.  Two things I learned from that experience.  1.  I really like shelf style layouts -- they put you trackside with the focus on the railroad and 2.  Continuous running isn't as much fun as I thought.  I was able to run long trains, but that got boring pretty quick.   

cudaken:

Norfolk, here is something like a shelf layout to think about. My next bench will be a donut design. Just to get you thinking.

The HOG is not a "shelf layout." A "Shelf" is attached to a wall.

Who the heck taught people that the only two kinds of layouts are "tables" and "shelves"?