General Discussion (Classic Trains)

T Z:  your turn to ask a question....

Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know?  I PM'd him and got no response...

 THEREFORE...I''' venture another question.   I am going to the wilds of Pennsylvania tormorrow (Sat 11/7 to venture the paths of probably almost a dozen fallen flags...and pennants...and handkerchiefs tied to tree limbs...aside from the given, PRR, NYC, name as many of the fallen that I may encounter.  I live in Vestal, NY, I will travel no more than 100 miles away from my home and in probably a more west-southwesterly direction than any other.  See you tomorrow night.

henry6:

Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know?  I PM'd him and got no response...

henry6:

Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know?  I PM'd him and got no response...

 THEREFORE...I''' venture another question.   I am going to the wilds of Pennsylvania tormorrow (Sat 11/7 to venture the paths of probably almost a dozen fallen flags...and pennants...and handkerchiefs tied to tree limbs...aside from the given, PRR, NYC, name as many of the fallen that I may encounter.  I live in Vestal, NY, I will travel no more than 100 miles away from my home and in probably a more west-southwesterly direction than any other.  See you tomorrow night.

Lehigh Valley, Reading, Erie, Lackawanna, Delaware & Hudson, B&O, PRR, NYC, West Shore, Northern Central.

Edit: add Jersey Central.

Johnny

With the exception of the D&H and RDG (where I'm not going) you got the flags.  How 'bout the pennents and handkerchiefs?

henry6:

With the exception of the D&H and RDG (where I'm not going) you got the flags.  How 'bout the pennents and handkerchiefs?

Thanks,

Johnny

You've got the right idea, Johnny...small and smaller!  I't too tired to do much tonight so I'll wait til tomorrow night giving an opportunituy to see how many roads, big, less big, and little and littler I was able to see, both operating and abandoned...long abandoned...I saw today!

But I will give you my parameters...west from Vestal, NY to Southport, NY, then into PA as far west as Port Alleghaney, south to Wharton, and back east again to Vestal, NY.

Lehigh Valley, Reading, Erie, Lackawanna, Delaware & Hudson, B&O, PRR, NYC, West Shore, Northern Central.

Edit: add Jersey Central.

Johnny

Johnny is along some of the right tracks...a little editing...take out Jersey Central, Reading, West Shore, and D&H.  Keep the others but...some of their predeccessors and successors have to be taken into consideration plus connections.  I will forgive all the names of the lumber company railroads simpley because there were so many and so many which changed names if not ownership so frequently that I cannot keep track.  But see who can fill in the most information before this evening before I award the prize.

I did the trip and the report is below...Johnny, you came closest by naming the major roads I would encounter...but I really didn't expect anyone to come up with the minor and sub minor ones...so it's your turn to ask...for those of you interested please read on..

...here goes the itinery:

Left the house and drove NY17 built on the former DL&W roadbed and across the river from the former Erie (EL,CR, NS) crossin over the former LV at Waverly.  Off the super hiway over to the southside of teh Susquehanna from Wellsburg to Elmira not only along the Erie but also taking in the former trolley row and powerhouse-station-barn on the way to Elmira...to Southport and onto the former PRR right of way to the Bulkhead then over to Pine City and trace the long gone Erie Tioga Division over Jackson Summit to Tioga Jct. PA.  Then north to Lawrence and west on PA 49 crossing the NYC's Wellsboro and Jersey Shore branch (later PC, later CR, with Erie and EL trackage rights) in search of NYC Fallbrook road branch up to Ulyssis, PA.  Meanwhile we ;picked up the Buffalo and Susquehanna (to B&O to Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton) at Elkland.  We continued west to Westfield, bid adieu to the NYC and took the WAG to Galeton and west to Walton via Rt 6.  A stop at the PA Lumber Museum gave us a chance to lookover a Shay and a Brookfield along with a steam logging crane which used to ride the sides of gons loading logs.  At Coudersport we picked up the Coudersport and Port Allegehney into Port Allegheney where we went south along the PRR (PC, CR, NS, now WN&PA) to Keating Summit passing by the bridge abutments of the Potato Creek RR.  A left turn had us following the Potato Creek abandoned roadbed to Austin where the abandoned B&S came up from Wharton.  From Keating to Wharton there were probably at least a dozen lumber roads which wandered up the runs (logging days way of naming streams leading away from main rivers and where logs were cut and slid down hill until tracks laid).  At Wharton we turned north to follow the  B&S (B&O) toward Galeton. Gas drilling at Hull forced us up the main road to Cherry Springs instead of being able to drive the roadbed and switchbacks up the hill.  From Galeton we went east on Rt 6 to Ansonia along the WAG (B&O) to Ansonia Jct. and the now walking path right of way of the former NYC (PC, CR) to Jersey Shore.  East on Rt 6 through Wellsboro then 660 to Covington and back to the  Erie (EL) Tioga Div. to Blossburg, Morris Run and Fall Brook.  Over the mountain somehow and we ended up in Canton, PA along the PRR's Northern Central just south of town, then east on Rt 414 along the never railed roadbed of the Pittsburg, Binghamton and Eastern  (no rails laid except in Canton where they displayed a large locomotive in the early 1900s).  We picked up the Susquehanna and New York's former right of way before entering Monroeton, PA where we met the LV's Sullivan and State Line-Bowmans Creek line, now the Monroeton Shippers Lifeline which connects to the former LV (CR, NS, Sayre to Mahoopany now a shortline in the hands of Owego and Harford). 

Gem of the day: CP&PA four wheel caboose on display at Coudersport. Beam marked "B&S GALETON" and arch bar trucks with B&S embossed in the steel.

Second gem of the day:  Near Burrows south of Galeton: a 1920 circa MACCAR bus being used as a hunting camp.

So, to answer the question what railroads...a lot, some new, some old, some there, most no longer here. 

henry6:

Johnny, you came closest by naming the major roads I would encounter...but I really didn't expect anyone to come up with the minor and sub minor ones...so it's your turn to ask.

When the one-night-out coach trains were inaugurated between Chicago and Miami in 1940, three sets of equipment were used, with each train being turned and started back to Chicago about an hour and a half after it arrived, in mid-afternoon, in Miami.

In the winter of 1950, the City of Miami was operated on this schedule, but the other two trains, the Dixie Flagler and the South Wind both left Chicago (still every third day) later in the morning, arriving in Miami later in the day than the City of Miami did–and left Miami for Chicago in the morning the same day, arriving in Chicago earlier than the City of Miami did. Yet, only three sets of equipment were needed for the Chicago-Miami service. There was still one arrival in, and one departure from, Miami each day.

How was this worked?

All three trains were coach and Pullman.

I am sure that Henry had a great day, even though he saw many places where much had been.

Johnny

Johnny,

Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains:

CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day

SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day

DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day

Are these the schedules on which your question is based?

Mark

KCSfan:

Johnny,

Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains:

CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day

SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day

DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day

Are these the schedules on which your question is based?

Mark

CM: Lv Chicago  8:10 am, Ar Miami  3:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 5:25 pm, Ar Chicago 10:45 pm the next day.

SW & DF: Lv Chicago 10:00 am, Ar Miami 6:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 11:30 am, Ar Chicago 6:00 pm the next day.

Johnny

Johnny

Johnny

It was right about that 1950 time period when the City of Miami and South Wind added a second consist each operating over there routes while the Dixie Flagler remained a single consist. All three trains had lost there coach only status by that time and Pullmans were operated in each consist as well. At first the Pullmans were heavyweights and were soon replaced by lightweights as the car builders caught up with orders. When the two trains added a second consist they each had more service time in Chicago. According to the information I have the City of Miami was always the most popular of the three with the South Wind second and the Dixie Flagler third. There are photos of the City of Miami running with as many as twenty cars in the winter months. I will always regret not riding any of the IC trains when I had the chance. I believe the IC and PRR trains both provided every other day service over there routes when they added the second consists.

Al - in - Stockton

PS I dont have all of my Official Guides at the house and the closest I have is a June 1954 one. I have dozens in a storage locker along with RR magazines that I don't have room for in my apartment. I only keep a few guides and all of my hardbound RR books at the apartment in legal bookcases ( It keeps them clean and cuts down on the amount of dusting). I have to stop collecting or start shopping for a bigger place.

I thought the trio ran with a single trainset each until 1957 when the Dixie Flagler was discontinued. After that time the CofM and SW operated on alternate days which necessitated the addition of a second trainset to each one. Al seems to be saying something a bit different in his prior post. Hopefully someone will confirm exactly what the set up was.

Mark

First, let me say that I do not have a definite word as to just how the DF & SW managed to have the service that is shown in the February, 1950, Guide. From the equipment that is listed, I surmised a certain procedure that was followed; this procedure made it possible for the daily Chicago-Miami service to still be provided by only three sets of equipment.

Second, there were several variations after the Winter 1950 season, which ended with the SW and CM operating on alternate days after the Dixieland (the renamed Dixie Flagler) was discontinued. At the moment, I do not have any of the timetables or Guides which show these variations near my computer. Some of these did require two sets of equipment for at least one of the trains.

Now, a clue (perhaps) as to why I believe that it was possible for three sets to provide the service:

The observation cars and diners were cut off in Jacksonville in the morning, and thus could leave for Chicago that evening. (It is interesting that the ACL representation shows no diner south of Jacksonville, and the FEC representation shows only a Jacksonville-Miami diner for each train.) Remember that the sleepers at this time were heavyweight, and probably were from the Pullman pool.

Johnny