General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I'm looking for information (preferably pointers to audio or video resources) about two things:

Item 1: I've never been to a real model railroading operating session. I've found videos and whatnot on the internet but they're always focused on following the trains and/or showing off the layout. If they have sound its either of somebody talking about the layout or where the train is going or else pop music dubbed over the sound so you can just sit and watch the trains.

I'm interested in learning more about operations and what an actual operating session is like. Does anybody have any pointers to video or audio resources where I can actually see or hear a typical model railroad operating session-- I'm particularly interested in the dispatch and train crew chatter. Knowing about the layout and other stuff is fine too I guess.

 
Item 2: I'm particularly interested in the Pennsylvania Railroad. Does anybody have or know of actual historical audio or video recordings of PRR dispatch operations and train crew chatter?

 
Thanks for any information!



 

 You might poke around this site http://www.opsig.org/

Enjoy

Paul 

 Dream Plan Build DVD, Special Project Edition had David Popp and his Operating Sessions set up as a introduction to Operation in Model Railroading. You could try Kalmbach to see if any of David's video material is still availible.

I have the DVD and could upload a condensed file somewhere onto the net to share, but... think that it will run afoul of a trainload of legal issues and wont go there.

It is a very nice video without the music or bragging on the "I-Love-Me" layouts.

 

Believe it or not, since the video was published, the entire Railroad and situation has only improved or gotten bigger and gone into different eras as well.

 

The Title on the DVD is "Realistic Layout Operations" under a number tagged "73102D and produced about 2006.

Thanks for the pointer. I don't mind the "I love my railroad" stuff, that's only natural, but I just want to see what a session is really like. I'll contact Kalmbach and see what they've got. Thanks!
 

jwhitten:

I've never been to a real model railroading operating session.

Look up some local clubs or people in your area that operate.  Ask them if you can come and observe an operating session.

I'm interested in learning more about operations and what an actual operating session is like.

Operating sessions are as different as night and day depending on the focus of the layout.  Some the dispatching is most important.  Some have the schedule be the most important thing. On some way freight is most important.  Others focus on the exact crew placement during switching operations (you better not build your train and then take off without that extra stop to pick up the switchman!).  Some operate with car cards while others use way bills.  The variations are endless, and so I cannot say there is any such thing as a "typical" operating session.  Likewise, I don't think that one can learn how to operate or what the right sort of operation is right for your layout  from just one or two resources. 

Item 2: I'm particularly interested in the Pennsylvania Railroad. Does anybody have or know of actual historical audio or video recordings of PRR dispatch operations and train crew chatter?

There has to be a PRR historical society out there somewhere that would be the best source for this information.

Texas Zepher:

Operating sessions are as different as night and day depending on the focus of the layout.  [...snip...] Likewise, I don't think that one can learn how to operate or what the right sort of operation is right for your layout  from just one or two resources. 

 

 

Yes, but on the other hand, having never experienced one at all, one would be better than none :)

 Your suggestions are good ones though I haven't found any nearby clubs. I hadn't considered that there could be additional operational focal points-- see, you've already educated me! :) Have you been to many sessions with different focal points? What seems to be the most common theme? How many sessions have you been to where you have to pick up the switchman each and every time? I'm familiar, sort-of, with some of the operating techniques (I've read a number of books about it) but I haven't ever experienced one for real (or second-hand). I see that I have some more considering to do... hmmmm
 

Joining the Operations SIG would help you answer many of these questions. The link was above, here it is again.
Operations SIG

There is an inexpensive on-line membership option for the publication. Also, the OpSIG operates a "Call Board" service that puts members in touch with others in their area who have operating layouts and invite newcomers.

Trust me, these are decisions that are better answered with some hands-on experience rather than theoretically. Different people enjoy different operating roles and themes and until you have personally experienced a few op sessions, you'll have trouble deciding. There are a lot of operating layouts in Virginia, the OpSIG might help you connect.

Byron
Model RR Blog

jwhitten:

Have you been to many sessions with different focal points?

Yes, for a while I was participating in three different round-robin operating groups.

What seems to be the most common theme?

Way Freight switching using the little cards (one per car)  that indicate which industry to spot a car at.  A schedule that indicates where one is supposed to meet other trains.  Most layouts I operate on are not big enough for the "keep the trains moving" type dispatch operation.  I would say that is the most rare - but I would say one of my favorites.

How many sessions have you been to where you have to pick up the switchman each and every time?

Exactly ONE, I never want to do that again.  To me they have crossed the line and changed something that should be fun into work.  I hate work.

 

I'll add, I think the best operation I regularly participate in is the Gulf Coast & Santa Fe.  Featured in, I think it was the December 2003 issue, of Railroad Modeler.  The concept is simple enough.  He took the real passenger schedule and implemented that on a fast clock.  Then he overlaid the busiest day of freight trains and added those trains to his schedule.   Each session is set up in advance.  He uses a dispatcher to control the trains.  He uses car cards but they are not flipped during the session so at the end each card should show its exact position of the car.  If the car doesn't match then there is an error.  There is a crew call board where crews get called up for the next train and one never knows what assignment they will get.  Trains communicate to the dispatcher via phones at the stations, there is no radio as there was no radio in 1953 that he is modeling.
 

You want to hear chatter during an operations session?  I've operated on a friends' large layout for many years, although I'm not overly serious about it.  I prefer to run passenger trains and through freight from one end to the other, no real interest in standing around trying to figure out switiching moves. 

I usually bring along my digital camera to the sessions and take still photos and/or videos with the camera.  I've combined some clips from different sessions and have posted half a dozen or so on YouTube. Here's one:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-sWVsYHqRw

You can probably find my others using this link.  Keep in mind that I used digital still cameras with video capability, so the quality isn't up to broadcast standards.  That fact and the video editing software I used again reduced the quality, YouTube's compression reduces it again.   I say this because when I posted one of the clips in the past, I got comments re the quality of the videos - I know they aren't professsional, I'm just playing around!   As I don't edit the sound, you'll hear the crew and dispatcher yammering amongst each other.  These aren't layout tour videos - I actually try to follow the trains through the scenery, picking up the sounds of the train - horn, bell, etc.

Give it a try!

 

 

jwhitten:

I'm interested in learning more about operations and what an actual operating session is like. Does anybody have any pointers to video or audio resources where I can actually see or hear a typical model railroad operating session-- I'm particularly interested in the dispatch and train crew chatter. Knowing about the layout and other stuff is fine too I guess.

What are you actually wanting to find out.  I'm not sure a audio tape would help you.  I can spend 3 hrs at an op sessions and not speak more than a half a dozen sentences.  Knowing WHY somebody is doing something is more important that just watching them do it.

jwhitten:

Item 2: I'm particularly interested in the Pennsylvania Railroad. Does anybody have or know of actual historical audio or video recordings of PRR dispatch operations and train crew chatter?

Since video cameras weren't invented when the PRR was around, you would would have to get movies dubbed to video.  That would be exceedingly rare.  Also since radios weren't that common, audio "chatter" would be rather rare.  The audio of a dispatcher would mostly be a dispatcher reading off train orders and the operators reading them back.  Once again it wouldn't tell you WHY a dispatcher was doing what he was doing or what the implications were.

I would suggest you join the Operations SIG of the NMRA, for a nominal fee you can get electronic copies of the Dispatch Office magazine that will give you a lot more information.  If you are interested in timetable and train order operation, Josserand's "Rights of Trains" available from Simmons Boardman (www.transalert.com) has more than you will ever want to know.  There is also the Rwy-ops-industrial group on Yahoo groups that discusses dispatching and operating information.

Dave H.

jwhitten,
Re: your original post, I am the Operations Chairman for a pretty large & old club (www.ssmrc.org), and I have a good sized home layout that I operate with others.  My ex-next door neighbor also had operations on his layout which was done with American Flyer equipment, but more realistic because of his tower operator job experience (NH, PC, C&O, MEC).  I enjoy operations, and probably wouldn't be a model railroader if I didn't.

At our old club location (2500 sq. ft.), we used DC analog cab control, which effected what we could do operationally.  Since we didn't have mobile throttles, we had to staff certain positions whether something was going on or not, and folks generally didn't move around once seated.  Also, folks had to qualify on each location they wanted to use, since each was rather unique.

Operations generally started at 8:30PM on the 2nd Monday of the month & the following Thursday nights, and lasted 2 hours.  We had a sign up sheet that listed all the locations, and it was first come, first served.  We had 12 qualified dispatchers, one per month.  All trains ran via a schedule, and were timed with a 6:1 Fast Clock.  Each yard and cab location had a digital clock, and every position had a telephone connection (we had our own internal phone system) and their own channel.

On Mondays, we ran 10 passenger trains, 10 freights, 4 locals, the narrow gauge, and the trolley freight, plus the 5 yards.  On Thursday, it was finishing up what didn't get done on Monday, plus a few more commuters and a couple more freights and locals.  All freight cars had car cards, and each had a clear plastic pocket on it for a waybill.  Total layout capacity was around 400 cars, and took a crew of four a couple hours to set up.

At our new club, we're about 1/3rd complete of an eventual 6300 sq. ft. layout.  We currently operate with anywhere from 7 to 20 members, and run approx. 30 trains in 2 hours (14 pass., 10 freights, 4 locals, and 2 yards).  We use DCC, so it's not that critical that folks staff a position 100% of the time (members have been known to go from running a local to running a yard, or a passenger train, whatever).  We still use a 6:1 Fast Clock, but now we use radios instead of telephones.  We still operate over 2 nights, but each session is set up independantly.  Total layout capacity is well over 400 cars (maybe 500 or 600), and we use switchlists that I hand enter into Excel (we have yet to find a decent car forwarding software that works for us).

Radio communication is a bit of a chore, as there can be several folks all trying to get the dispatcher's attention at the same time.  There is also a big problem with folks who don't know how to use their radios properly, and have it set on VOX or they lock the mic on (so we can hear everything they say...and no one else can use the radio for any reason until someone slaps them upside the head).  This is why we try to let the yards get the trains in and out of the terminal by the simple method of letting the crews talk to the yardmaster and merely informing the dispatcher of when they left (this cut way down on radio chatter).

If you have any specific question, don't hesitate to ask.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

 

Howdy,

 

I did look at your links today, very nice layout. I will have to look at them several more times before I can pick out the conversation. Its pretty muffled for the most part. On the other hand, I understand your point about there only being so much anyway. I understand, at least generally, how operations works (both real and model) but I'm still in the process of building my first real layout. And its large enough to be of the type to "keep the trains moving".

 

That sounds like a really nice layout. I'm still hunting around a bit for the exact date of my railroad but its going to be PRR in the mid-50's to early 60's. Early enough to have a little steam lingering about but mostly diesel I think. If you haven't read my other posts around, I'm modelling the "South Pennsylvania Railroad", the "woulda-been, sorta-was" prototype that eventually became the Pennsylvania turnpike. While my layout isn't as big as your club layout by any means, I think it will be large enough to keep a 6 or 8 people happy for awhile. I'm working with approx 250 linear feet of space (folded up a little to fit into the basement) with a nominal depth of about 3 feet, plus a couple of hidden staging yards and hidden loops on each end.

Given my time period, I would be right in that area where either telephone or radio (or even both) would be appropriate, and I can easily hook up an internal telephone system or else get a set of multi-channel radios, whichever seems easier and less hassle.

I suppose in some ways I'm putting the cart before the horse to worry about that level of operational detail at this stage. On the other hand, one of the other people that replied clued me in that there are various facets of operations and operational focus that I could implement, depending on what I'm interested in. I hadn't thought about that-- something new to consider. I learn new stuff all the time from you seasoned folks.

I read Bruce Chubb's book, for instance, about operations on the Sunset Valley, and I get a pretty good sense of how it works from a theoretical point of view, but there's no "dialog" or transcript I can read through to get a sense of it from a "theatrical" point of view-- meaning how it all plays out. What's the jargon? What are the little lexical details that make it seem real?

Here's an example of what I mean-- suppose I decide to become interested in model rocketry so I start boning up on it and reading about rocket motors, flight characteristics, fuel types and mixtures, instrumentation and the various elements involved in "mission control"-- and I want to build a model "nasa" that will simulate the gist of all that. So I build a rocket, set up what I imagine mission control ought look like, and get a bunch of guys together to play the various parts... the countdown begins... Z, Y, X, W... "Hey Mission Control Dudes, everything's looking good-- the little red blinky thing on top is on and blinking just fine"... "Excellent news gantry guy! Uh, any info about those water jet dealies?"... " "Hang on a sec, I'll check there... better stop the launch sequence for a moment"... "Okay, launch stopped at W, we're waiting at W"... "Okay, just checked the water jets, we're cool"... "Okay, got it, restarting sequence-- let's pick it up at W"... V, U, T, S, R.... "Hey, can somebody check the fuel guage real quick?" "Uh, okay Mission control dude, I got it-- checking"... "Let me know when you get it okay?"... Q, P, O, N, M, L... "Yup, fuel's okay. You want me to open the valve now?"... "Yeah, that would be good."... K, J, I... "Okay mission control dude, fuels flowing now".... "Great. Somebody kick on the water jets and fire up the engine... Let's light this candle!"... H, G, F... "Okay, got it, engine fired up-- ouch, burnt my finger-- oooh, that's gonna smart".... E, D... "Swing back the gantry"... "Got it"... C, B, A... "Pop the clutch and let 'er rip!"

Somehow it just doesn't have the same pizazz...

 

jwhitten:

I read Bruce Chubb's book, for instance, about operations on the Sunset Valley, and I get a pretty good sense of how it works from a theoretical point of view, but there's no "dialog" or transcript I can read through to get a sense of it from a "theatrical" point of view-- meaning how it all plays out. What's the jargon? What are the little lexical details that make it seem real?

You are fortunate to have Chubb's out-of-print book (Kalmbach, 1977). There's actually quite a bit of what you are looking for in there, as far as I can see. The sidebars on pages 64 through 67 describe a local freight's job in some detail. Pages 68 to 70 include some verbal exchanges between yard crew and yardmaster. Pages 127 to 131 describe written train orders. This is a more advanced technique, but includes some jargon for atmosphere. Beginning on page 169, there is a running description of the operating session, with dialogue. These descriptions are a little bit dated now (DCC can take away a lot of the concern about handing control back-and-forth with a limited number of cabs, for example). But they are still a good example of jargon and conversation from one operating session.

Operating sessions at each layout take on their own personality, driven by the interests of of the owner and crew. Some sessions are purposeful but relaxed. Others are more intense and disciplined. There are a number of different ways to control the movement of trains, appropriate to various eras and prototypes, which are adapted by layout owners for their sessions. With each of these, the conversations among crew members take on a completely different feel. In Timetable and Train Order (TT&TO) operations, the crew might not speak to the dispatcher at all, instead receiving written orders from a train order operator (as described on pages 127 to 131 of the Chubb book). On the other hand, the more-modern Track Warrant Control method involves crew members speaking directly to the dispatcher, reading back instructions as they are given following the format of a printed sheet.

Again I would recommend joining the OpSIG and availing yourself of the opportunity to visit a few different op sessions to get an idea of the variety of methods used today.

Byron
Model RR Blog

Have you taken a look at Joe Fugate's Op Session Live! video series? Here are some links. Please note that the sample videos have a lot of musical scenes, but this is just in the preview and not so much on the actual DVD. I highly recommend these videos to anyone who has never been exposed to an actual operationg session on a real working model railroad. Hope this does not seem like an advertisement, consider it a testimonial. These videos mark a significant milestone in my model railroad life--they really got me thinking about operations where as before I was really just thinking about running trains in circles. Jamie

DVD Series

Model railroad Op Session Live! DVDs

  

Preview Videos

Model Railroad Op Session Live! No. 1
Model Railroad Op Session Live! No. 2
Model Railroad Op Session Live! No. 3