General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I was into model rr'ing in the late 70's and 80's and as a kid always drooled over the PFM (Pacific Fast Mail) ads on the back of Model Railroader magazine. Of course I could never afford those pieces of art at the time. After a stint with N-scale in the mid-90's I'm back into trains (but this time HOn3). I can't seem to find all that much on brass locos. Especially the once from Japan.

What happened to PFM, Nakamura, Hallmark, United, Key, Overland, et. al.? 

 -G-

Oh - during this long time A LOT has changed! Prices for Japanese brass models were skyrocketing, so the importers went to Korea and only some very few special and limited run models - like "CROWN" models from PFM - still were made in Japan, but finally around 1990 this has been discontinued, too. Since then Japan produced only some models for the SWISS importer LEMACO (now LEMATEC), FULGUREX AND METROPOLITAN. These were of German, French and Swiss prototypes. The very last Japanese brass locomotive model was a German 2-10-0 class 44 for LEMACO around 1996 or 97 - even then priced close to 3000$.

The best known Japanese builder - Tenshodo - is still existing and still produces unbelievable pieces of rolling stock after Japanese prototypes - but for unbelievable prices, of course.

PFM, Westside, Hallmark, Balboa, as well as many others no longer exist.  Many didn't survive the last 1 1/2 decade.

Key and Overland - as well as some others - still are around (btw I know only one single Japanese model imported by Overland, they almost exclusively imported Korean models), but since some years the brass business is in serious danger because of the same problem of rising prices, and today fewer people are interested in brass models than 20 years ago.

If you are looking for brass models - especially the older ones - either Japanese or Korean - I would recommend ebay at first - chose your scale and type in

brass

and you will always find a large selection.

But there are also some fine online stores like

thecaboose.com

caboosehobbies.com

brasstrains.com

uncledavesbrass.com

railmodel.com

uncledavesbrass.com

as well as others who always have many models stored.

If you are looking for info and photos of some specific steam engines contact me via email, perhaps I can help you since I have a very large photo archive of brass steam locomotives.

Another recommendation is to buy the new book from Dan Glasure from brasstrains.com. This will be a listing of all (or at least the most) brass train models being imported to the US until 2007. 

Good luck.

VAPEURCHAPELON wrote:

... but since some years the brass business is in serious danger because of the same problem of rising prices, and today fewer people are interested in brass models than 20 years ago...

There is another reason as well besides rising prices. Most of the craftsmen that handbuilt most of these locos have now also retired or passed on. There seems to have been no one (or few) trained in this type of work, so fewer craftsmen, fewer models. This type of work was originally done by the jewelry makers. The economic conditions allowed their children, instead of being trained in the "family business" as they would have in the past, to chose another, more economically rewarding career. 

Hi Lateral,

Welcome to the forum - I have posted 2 sites below that you may be interested in checking out. Another very high quality manufactuer - probably the finest in the world is Micro-Metakit which can be found at Reynaulds.

 http://www.reynaulds.com/

 http://www.ballsofbrass.com/information/i_FAQ's_adv.htm  (This site should list current as well as past manufacturers and U.S. importers)

Good luck in your search

Lateral-G wrote:

I was into model rr'ing in the late 70's and 80's and as a kid always drooled over the PFM (Pacific Fast Mail) ads on the back of Model Railroader magazine. Of course I could never afford those pieces of art at the time. After a stint with N-scale in the mid-90's I'm back into trains (but this time HOn3). I can't seem to find all that much on brass locos. Especially the once from Japan. What happened to PFM, Nakamura, Hallmark, United, Key, Overland, et. al.?   -G-

DISCLAIMER::  LONG STORY WITH NO HAPPY ENDING.  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

You can still get anything made in Japan you want if you don't mind the cost.   If you had asked this question 25 years ago in about 1984 or so, I would report the Korean brass is taking over the market since they do great work and offer a much lower price.   That begin to happen in about 1982 and even PFM used Samhongsa for some of their last imports.  After PFM stopped importing brass from Japan, Tenshodo made some one on runs and sold them to dealers and advertised their products here in the USA.  The Tenshodo Union Pacific Challengers and the Northern Pacific Challengers were offered in the early 1993 era and these models had dual motors and other upgrades.  Don't ask the price.   Tenshodo also offered the Union Pacific 4-12-2 9000 class a little later in the 90's.  If you had to ask the price, you could not afford it either.    In the last few years, a few O scale models have been offered from Japan.  The average price is about $10,000 to $12,000 for a 4-8-4.  I don't have any idea of what an articulated would cost, but # 1 scale brass probably would be less money made in Korea than O scale from Japan today.

Japan based KTM had built brass for Max Gray, Balboa and finally Westside along with a few other importers for almost forty years.  These are some of the brass I still have and continue to purchase them when possible.  One Japan built model just arrived today from a brass dealer and it is built by Atlas Industries under the United/PFM name.  They are extremely solid and you really can't wear them out without really trying.  The gearboxes are stronger than any thing built today and the detail is acceptable, but not up to the standards that we expect now.  The way I see it, that is the real problem. 

 We have come to expect so many details and options that were not even available when we purchased the latest brass thirty years ago.  During the last few years of Atlas Industries building brass for PFM, detail went from everyday models to the Crown Level of detail.  The last models they imported were close to one thousand dollars or more in 1982.   That was a time when Key was importing Samhongsa built great detailed and great running models for about half of that price.   I still have many of those also.  They were and still are very good models and any brass today that equals the detail and overall quality of the Key Coasting Drive models from Key from the 1986 era are in the 1500 to 1800 range today.

That is why Samhongsa stopped making models four years ago but Key still imports brass from Korea via Samtech.  They are the people that worked for Samhongsa and believe me, they make some of the best brass today.  I have three of their latest models and you will not find better brass anyplace, but they are not cheap.  

 Key is still importing very fine quality brass.  Division Point brings in very nice brass, but uses Bo Rim to build their brass.  i managed to get one of their models two years ago and they are really fine quality also.    Sunset is importing brass but they are affordable and are less than desirable if you want first line quality.     For the price, they are OK.  

 PFM is long gone from the Hobby but still have left their mark on all of us who purchased their products for forty years or more.   I still have their PFM sound system, but ie is not worth the money it takes to store them any longer since DCC sound is available. 

Challenger Imports is one of the most recent large companies to stop importing Korean brass.   Global Outlet also went out recently but they had only been importing models for a short time compared to any of the major companies.  The only model I could get from Global Outlet was the 5011 class SF 2-10-4.  It was built by Samtech and is extremely nice.   Hallmark stopped bringing in brass several years ago and Bobby Hall passed away last year or so.  I got to see her a few years ago again at the Dallas store while they were selling off the stock.   The main problem about importing brass is the product lines are family owned and they do not get passed on in most cases.   Even Overland is now run by Brian but his dad, Tom started the company and ran it for many years.

But since you asked the question today about where the brass is from Japan, it is on Ebay and every dealer than handles brass.  Caboose Hobbies, The Caboose and many other brass dealers still offer brass from Japan every day of the week and many of those models were made in Japan.    They are still worth the money, but you can't get any new ones.  I have found recently that I can pick up brass today for less money than when it was new in the seventies and eighties and many are mint in the box.   For my money, you can't beat that deal if you really want good quality brass and the ones available suit you.

I don't install sound in any of my brass models because they only pick up power on one side of the tender and one side of the locomotive.  This is not a good situation for DCC or DCC sound since you can loss control and have problems unless both the locomotive and track are perfectly clean.

All of my brass is a mixture of Japanes and Korean made. I'm selling off my models made in Japan and some that were made in Korea. Overland has also started to import brass that is made in China. There have been stories circulating that the importers may start importing brass that has been made in Vietnam as the Vietnamese are very skilled metal makers.

Charlie

CAZEPHYR just covered the subject of Japanese brass about as well as the subject can be covered, IMO. 

Luckily for those of us who model railroads whose steam locomotives are only available as brass models for the most part, there are quite a few dealers in used brass locomotives where a great deal of the past manufacturers and importers can still be obtained.  

I happen to model Rio Grande standard-gauge steam, so Caboose Hobbies in Denver, CO is an excellent source of locomotives for my particular needs.  Some of their models are pretty pricey--but it's possible to find some excellent bargains among their stock.  For the most part, the locomotives are extremely well detailed, and since brass is extremely easy to work with, they can be made to run just as smoothly as current plastic steam.  

I've also had quite good luck with used brass from Peach Creek Shops in Maryland, and BrassTrains.  I've never used E-Bay,but I've heard that some good bargains can be had there, as well. 

There's lots of good, solid Japanese brass out there, it's not as hard to find as one would think.  But with certain models--such as the PFM Crown series, be prepared to empty your wallet, LOL!

A very fine current importer of Korean Brass is PSC in Montana.  Pricey,but worth every penny.  I recently obtained a Rio Grande F-81 2-10-2 from them that is an absolutely beautiful runner and a fine puller.  I had a problem with electrical contact after a couple of months, and the company repaired it very quickly and with no charge.  Quite a fine company to deal with, IMO. 

Tom

twhite wrote:

I've never used E-Bay,but I've heard that some good bargains can be had there, as well.

About 90% of my brass rolling stock has been purchased on ebay. Because of the prices. I got many models there for less than half the real value - compared with listings of online stores. Even Crown models one could say are often cheap on ebay. But of course it can go the other direction.

And it becomes even more freaking when the seller seemingly has no idea what he is selling and just puts on the head line something like "metal train steam locomotive model" - it's just not the place here to say which models I got searching that way - and for how much...

twhite wrote:

CAZEPHYR just covered the subject of Japanese brass about as well as the subject can be covered, IMO.  There's lots of good, solid Japanese brass out there, it's not as hard to find as one would think.  But with certain models--such as the PFM Crown series, be prepared to empty your wallet, LOL! A very fine current importer of Korean Brass is PSC in Montana.  Pricey,but worth every penny.  I recently obtained a Rio Grande F-81 2-10-2 from them that is an absolutely beautiful runner and a fine puller.  I had a problem with electrical contact after a couple of months, and the company repaired it very quickly and with no charge.  Quite a fine company to deal with, IMO.  Tom

 Tom

Thanks for mentioning PSC.  I do have several of their locomotives and they certainly are equal to the standards of today.  I believe PSC is now importing more new items than any of the other companies, at least steam models.  Those new A4's and A5's from PSC are really looking good.  I noticed one of the W&R L132's recently and it probably is about as expensive as any HO today.  I don't not own any W&R locomotives and have been looking for a bargain, but the L132 was not it.    

It seems to me the real brass bargains today are at dealers that purchase old collections and then sell them off quickly to recoup the money invested.  That is the reason I have purchased several older models already this year because they are such good value for the money.  You can add double weight to most any of the older Atlas and KTM built models and almost pull anything. 

 CAZEPHYR

I think this is a sign that the current hobby manufacturers need to dig in and make some more variety of steamers and models using the cast plastic. The brass engines are hand made. I would even go as far as the manufactures need to make kits to reduce costs for the hobbyist, thats why Varney did what they did, MDC etc. Its one thing Walthers overpromotes the Hiawatha, but all the model world is bigger than the Milwaukee road, tho, as cool as it is to see the model made.

Older brass is probably the best way to try to find your fav engine you can't find anywhere else.

I had been on the hunt for the Nickel PLate products NKP 4-6-4 with elephant ears, and some guy in Austrailia was selling one on ebay, onther bidder outbid me but he had 2! so sold the other at the same wining price. Its here now...all the way from australia.

Nice runner.