Layouts and layout building

I've been making progress on my layout planning - mostly working on Town C first, getting roads and parking lots and crossings, more specific on the industries and building footprints.  Not ready to post an updated plan yet.  The Thawville thread was great learning for me, but lead me to an amateur proto-lance question for you guys.  When would a railroad service multiple industries with one spur vs. an individual spur for each industry?  I'm guessing it would be based on what's most cost-effective.  For smaller industries in rural midwest during the late 60's, what would be typical?

I'm going with the twice-around design with lower-level staging.  Thanks for the confirmation that this design will work as long as I pay close attention to the grades and, as selector advised, keep the staging to a few tracks located at the front edge of the benchwork.

My second question for the forum, totally unrelated from the first question above, is on vertical easements.  I plan to use cookie-cutter, 3/4" plywood and cork construction.  I understand that a 2.5% grade is a rise of 2 1/2" over a run of 100".  To maintain a true 2.5% maximum grade and allow for vertical easements, the 100" run should be extended, but by how much?  The online searching I've done varies greatly.  The shortest was 6" (3" on each end of the grade, based on a geometrical explanation that was way over my head).  The longest was 30" (12" for each percent of grade).  I interpret the variation to mean that longer easements are better.  But on a smaller layout where you're scapping for every 1/8", don't worry - let the cookie-cutter do it's thing, and if 2.5% is really 2.75%, so be it.

Any feedback on either of my questions would again be most appreciated.

-Marker

Here is the bottom of the grade.

________/    That is not much of a diagram with keyboard... been way too long since ASCII...

Anyhow...

A pullman Heavyweight is about 1 foot long. If I ran that pullman into the bottom of the grade as presented in my rough diagram in the previous sentance, the wheels will lift off the ground and derail when it runs into the grade itself.

That pullman should start to GENTLY very GENTLY climb about 1.5 feet PRIOR to the start of the grade. This Grade will increase from Horizonal to the actual grade.

WHen that pullman reaches the TOP of the grade it needs about 1.5 feet to DECREASE the grade before actually passing the summit itself onto Level track.

So, whatever grade I have I add about 3 feet to the total length to allow that pullman to behave nicely.

Now that coal car? The little widdle 6 inch car? You hit the trestle grade about 4 inches prior and end it 4 inches after.

I have tested the PRR Duplex from BLI against my KATO track and a woodland scenics gradeient foam at 3% I find that I need to start the grade 2 feet from the bottom of the incline and end it 2 feet after the top of the incline.

The word I use is transitions and they exist at the bottom and the top of all grades.

Regarding the smaller layouts with less room for transitions, That is why I keep a 4 axle set of ABBA F units with a 2-10-2 pusher. I can handle any train up any grade as long as the flanges can hold the rolling stock down on the rails at the transitions.

With that attitude, I consider 3% the maximum grade. If it still isnt enough room then I add curves to it to try and cross over the track at a different location and stay within the 3%. Yes I know I will introduce additional gradiant because of curvature but we are in mountain country anyhow.

DMarker wrote:

I've been making progress on my layout planning - mostly working on Town C first, getting roads and parking lots and crossings, more specific on the industries and building footprints.  Not ready to post an updated plan yet.  The Thawville thread was great learning for me, but lead me to an amateur proto-lance question for you guys.  When would a railroad service multiple industries with one spur vs. an individual spur for each industry?  I'm guessing it would be based on what's most cost-effective.  For smaller industries in rural midwest during the late 60's, what would be typical?

 I am glad the Thawville thread was of use to you. I (and Jeff - ICRR1964) had fun working on that design.

 For the 2x8 small agricultural town design contest, I researched three midwestern towns (one of them, Thawville, in collaboration with Jeff - ICRR1964), looking at historical prototype photos,

 It certainly seems that having several industries on the same track at least was not something very unusual - I found this in all three towns I looked at:

• Thawville, IL
• Fergus Falls, MN and
• Dalton, MN 

  You have already seen the Thawville design (and the prototype photos that design was based on).

 Here is another 2x8 layout, based on prototype photos of NP trackage in Fergus Falls, Otter Tail County, Minnesota (pop about 13 000 - it is a larger town).

 And her is another, based on a the small town of Dalton, MN (pop 258, as of the 2000 Census).  My wife's grandpa had a rail served business in Dalton back in the 1950s or so - a smallish lumber dealership. 

Prototype photos from Dalton (from the Minnesota Historical society's online DB of images):

 View from the south:

View from the north:

Prototype photos from Fergus Falls (also from the MN Historical society online DB):
Here is a prototypical track through a smallish midwestern town (Fergus Falls, Otter Tail County, MN - picture is from 1971, tracks are older):

 We are looking northwest along the Northern Pacific track. Depot is at left side of photo, freight track center left, elevator at top, concrete pipe plant and fuel dealer on siding at bottom.

 Same scene seen from the north towards the south:

 Smile,
 Stein

DMarker wrote:

My second question for the forum, totally unrelated from the first question above, is on vertical easements.  I plan to use cookie-cutter, 3/4" plywood and cork construction.  I understand that a 2.5% grade is a rise of 2 1/2" over a run of 100".  To maintain a true 2.5% maximum grade and allow for vertical easements, the 100" run should be extended, but by how much?  The online searching I've done varies greatly.  The shortest was 6" (3" on each end of the grade, based on a geometrical explanation that was way over my head).  The longest was 30" (12" for each percent of grade).  I interpret the variation to mean that longer easements are better.  But on a smaller layout where you're scapping for every 1/8", don't worry - let the cookie-cutter do it's thing, and if 2.5% is really 2.75%, so be it. Any feedback on either of my questions would again be most appreciated. -Marker

With 3/4" plywood, you are not going to be able to bend it to a vertical curve that your rolling stock cannot handle.  I've always used 5 ply 1/2" plywood, and I've never been able to bend that into too sharp a vertical transition for my HO layout.  So why put yourself through the agony of calculating everything to the nearest .001"?  Very few of us can construct benchwork to better than 1/16" tolerance, anyway.

One of the beauties of cookie-cutter construction is not having to worry about vertical transitions.  Calculate the grade based on straight line, and know the mid-point when built will be a little steeper.  But if train length approaches even 1/2 the length of the grade, a good portion of the train will not be on the steepest part of the grade at any given time.

Tip:  if at possible, make the entire grade with one piece of plywood, including a little distance beyond transitions at each end.  The worst place to have a plywood joint is in the vertical transition area.  Better to put the joint at mid-grade with a decent length splice plate underneath (if the splice plate is fastened properly, that section isn't going to bend into a vertical curve).

Another tip:  if the grade is on a curve, be prepared to add extra risers and cleats to "twist" the plywood into laying flat (or your chosen super elevation) across the grade.  Without the introduced twist, on a 180 degree curve 1/2 the grade will a negative super-elevation and 1/2 will have a positive.  The steeper the grade and the sharper curve, the more pronounced the effect.  Don't ask me how I learned this.

Final tip:  Be prepared to go to 5/8" or 1/2" plywood instead of 3/4" subroadbed for your grades if you can't get enough bend or twist into it.  The bends and twists pre-stress the plywood and will make it more rigid than plywood laid flat, so the the reduced thickness will not cause you any sagging problems.

my thoughts and experiences, your choices

Fred W