General Discussion (Model Railroader)

Blind Bruce wrote:

Most replys indicate to file the points but do you file the pointed end of the frog as well?

Don't touch the frog unless the gauge shows its off. The guard rails are important for guiding the train thru, so check the gauge for the guard rails, thats the reverse side of the nmra gauge with the blocky points. This checks for the flange width, and guard rail placement. The middle gauge I think just checks for frog width check. If the wheels are picking the frog, and the track gauge is correct, the guard rails are the problem. You may be able to glue a thin plastic shim on the guard rail. Otherwise its either trying to move the guard rail in.

If the guard rails show fine and everythings in gauge, the frog is at fault if wheels are picking on it, then file the frog in a little.

My switch building doesnt need filing when placing the rail parts, I already filed them, I spike parts down and adjust them shoving the rail back and forth. When set, the whole switch gets serious spiking to hold everything secure. Nope nothing glued, soldered.

 

'SHORT answer' You don't (except)

1. A 'Commmercial' turnout is generally one made of stamped metal set into molded plastic, and very little you can do to correct the manufacuring economies to reach the 'Entry Level' market.

2. Generally the higher priced turnouts (Shinohara - Micro-Engineering earn their stripes by using tighter tolerances - leaving 'fine-tuning' to a minimum, (like chamfering points)- filing a flat "D" across the top ends off the points to 'nudge' the wheel flanges and eliminate 'picking'.

3. 'Fast Track' Jigs allow cutting and shaping to NMRA specs. 'Money saved' is offset by hours spent.

4. BK 'KITS' can be ordered pre-assembled, getting many of fast track's operational benefits by merely spiking in place.  BK makes your turnouts on HIS Jigs, to order.   http://www.troutcreekeng.com/bkn.htm

Once set into place, they are superb. Spiking with the Micro Mark tool (see this month's MR) is Simple, Cost, and time effective. There are magnifying lamps for those needing multi-tasking optical assistance .

PECO are a high quality turnout that is getting some earned plaudits, also some minor caveats. They're European, with wider flangeways and guard rails, black plastic frogs, and Metric measurements.  Their Code 83 Insulfrog is both DC (power routing) & DCC compatible.

riogrande5761 and B. Bruce:

Guard rails - properly placed - pull the wheel flange past the frog point. Filing is not necessary.It is a poor substirute for too wide flangeways, where the wheel drops into 'trough'. 'Tight' frog flangeways are also 'pickier' when it comes to wheel gauging. Now comes the argument: Is that 'good' or 'bad'?

The frog and wing rails are what allow smooth transition through the the frog. Don't be afraid of RP-25 specs and castings, here. The 'wing' rails prevent the wheel from dropping.

NEWBIES blame the switch when their factory gauged wheels dont go through!

An NMRA Gage? What's that?  For that matter, the current 'MARK IV' gage  is deeper (and wider) than the Old one. GUESS which one passes more wheelsets? (I have both).

When I started building in my present layout space, I acquired samples of a couple of brands of commercial turnouts, put together a temporary test layout and ran some of the rolling stock that had been happy with my previous layout.

As a result of those experiments, I 'fine tuned' the commercial products right into the nearest round receptacle and made a firm decision to stick with hand-laid specialwork.

Maybe some day a commercial product will be as good as the turnouts I build out of raw rail.  And maybe, someday, cows will be FAA certified for IFR flight.  I'm not holding my breath - or my construction schedule.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

tomikawaTT wrote:

Maybe some day a commercial product will be as good as the turnouts I build out of raw rail.  And maybe, someday, cows will be FAA certified for IFR flight.  I'm not holding my breath - or my construction schedule. Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

 

tomikawaTT wrote:

When I started building in my present layout space, I acquired samples of a couple of brands of commercial turnouts, put together a temporary test layout and ran some of the rolling stock that had been happy with my previous layout. As a result of those experiments, I 'fine tuned' the commercial products right into the nearest round receptacle and made a firm decision to stick with hand-laid specialwork. Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Chuck:

I started handlaying the turnouts in place on my HO Siskiyou Line and it was taking me too darn long, so I held my nose and went with commercial turnouts for the bulk of the layout -- and now I'm paying for it. That was 15 years ago, and the Fast Tracks / CVT fast handlaid turnout options were not available.

As I get time, I'm slowly replacing the problem turnouts on my layout with CVT tie-based turnouts using PC ties. And I'm using the Fast Tracks point and frog tools, along with the CV turnout ties as a sort of "poor man's" turnout jig to position the rails.

And were I starting over, there would not be a commercial turnout in sight on the Siskiyou Line. If reliability is your number one goal, they're just not worth it. 

Hand-built turnouts are the way to go, but if you cannot, I recommend Peco 83.  These supposedly have been designed to US standards, and do not suffer the compromises of the 100 line for deep wheels, etc.  I am using Peco 75's, and seldom have a derailment, even with Fine tread wheels.  One person told me he grinds the top of his Pecos enough to ensure that the frogs don't stick up, but I didn't find that necessary.

The Electrofrog versions can be made electrically very reliable by 1. using external contacts to switch the frog power, and 2. by cutting the underside jumpers connecting the frog and closure rails, and adding a pair between the closure and stock rails.  The reliability comes from the facts that there is no loss of contact as on an insulated frog, and that the point rails are fed from both ends.  I have 35 Electrofrog switches in operation with this mod, and have zero electrical problems with any kind of rolling stock. 

The key to eliminating shorts with metal wheels at the frog area on the Peco 83's and 75's is that the gaps insulating the closure rails from the frog are placed optimally, about 2 +/- inches away from the frog.  You would almost have to turn a truck 90 degrees to get a short.

The older code 100 Pecos don't have this separation, and shouldn't be modifed as above. 

Hal

 

I dont know about the cant lay rail part. But the Katos I use get gauged on arrival from the store. They pretty much passed the gauge exam right from the factory except for one little joint that was too tight in gauge. A few moments with a dremel tool equippted with a grinding wheel took care of that little headache forever.

When these Katos go bad and wear out, I'll drop another one in there.

Some of us are confronted with nervous system challenges that exclude very fine work such as laying rail and spiking reliably.

If I shorted a turnout, it means I was a dummy and ran against the points. I aint caught fire yet. That Command Station does a good job catching dead shorts in time. Which will be backed by additional breakers in the future.

With all this talk of laying rail and building switches by hand, who knows I might learn enough to do it one day.

One of the best "doing your own turnouts" videos I've ever watched is the Fast Tracks how-to video. Get yourself a nice cup of your favorite hot beverage, go to the Fast Tracks web site, and watch the Building turnouts video (the first video on the list).

This video runs for over an hour, but it shows you how just about anybody can build a good turnout with something like the Fast Tracks jig and tools.

The one biggest disadvantages to the Fast Tracks approach is you don't get tie plate and spikehead detail. 

Now if you want a nice performing turnout that also looks good, you can use the Central Valley turnout tie kit to build the turnout, since the tie kit has slots in the ties for the rails and the ties have excellent tie plate and spikehead detail. You do have to do a bit more work yourself with the Central Valley turnout tie kits making sure everything is in gauge, however -- but using the CVT ties is still far easier than handlaying a turnout completely from scratch.

I'd be in heaven if Fast Tracks offered a version of their turnout jigs that fits the CV turnout ties!

jfugate wrote:

SBCA wrote: Joe, How do you control those tolerances with the CV tie kits?  Do you still use an NMRA gauge and a calipers to set those distances? Also, are you able to have all-metal guard rails and wing rails with the CV tie kits?  (I asked the same question in the Fasttracks thread) - I'm curious to see how you deal with these issues - the CV tiestrip / Fasttracks tools seems like it could be a great combination! Tell you what ... I will build up a turnout this weekend and take some stills, and see if I can explain a few details. Since this discussion is getting pretty technical, let's take it offline to my personal web site for those who may be interested. I'd post it on here but it will be back on page 20 before the week's out and then no one could find it. At least on my personal web site I have total say on making things easy to find.   Just use the link in my signature to get to my site, and then go to the forum area. I'll start a topic over there to continue the CV turnout construction discussion.

 

Joe, I'm enjoying the thread you started.  Your pictures are great.  In particular, your pictures showed that the wingrails and guardrails are not part of the tie strip (I thought they were molded in).  Maybe you're really onto something here!

As a mechanical engineer, I want the best performing turnouts possible - but also as a mechanical engineer, I'm not excited about buildint them "craftsman style" - with endless filing and tweaking.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you're going to do all of the gauging, etc.

 

 

SB:

Glad to hear you are finding the posts useful.

One question I wonder about is covering general how-to details when writing content. For instance, I'm writing about how to build a turnout using the Central Valley turnout tie kit as a "poor man's jig" since there are no Fast Tracks jigs that fit the CVT tie strips. Yet I want the excellent tie plate and spike head detail of the CVT ties, so the turnout will blend better with my MicroEngineering track. If I go through all the trouble to get great looking track, it seems a shame to have turnouts with no tie plate or spikehead detail.

Photo of nicely detailed ME track on the HO Siskiyou Line:

(Click image to enlarge) 

So do I sidetrack to do a how-to on soldering techniques, which gets a bit off the beaten path of building the turnout per se? In a magazine article, I'd write a sidebar, but in a forum format, it's kinda hard to do a sidebar. One could start a new thread I suppose, but that feels almost like a whole new article ... to use the print paradigm again. 

jfugate wrote:

SB: Glad to hear you are finding the posts useful. One question I wonder about is covering general how-to details when writing content. For instance, I'm writing about how to build a turnout using the Central Valley turnout tie kit as a "poor man's jig" since there are no Fast Tracks jigs that fit the CVT tie strips. Yet I want the excellent tie plate and spike head detail of the CVT ties, so the turnout will blend better with my MicroEngineering track. If I go through all the trouble to get great looking track, it seems a shame to have turnouts with no tie plate or spikehead detail. Photo of nicely detailed ME track on the HO Siskiyou Line: (Click image to enlarge)  So do I sidetrack to do a how-to on soldering techniques, which gets a bit off the beaten path of building the turnout per se? In a magazine article, I'd write a sidebar, but in a forum format, it's kinda hard to do a sidebar. One could start a new thread I suppose, but that feels almost like a whole new article ... to use the print paradigm again.

In internetland, why not a link to the Fastracks site for their how to solder track to ties video? or the PDF?
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/documents.php


If you decide you want to do your own article later, just change the link.

jfugate wrote:

One of the best "doing your own turnouts" videos I've ever watched is the Fast Tracks how-to video. Get yourself a nice cup of your favorite hot beverage, go to the Fast Tracks web site, and watch the Building turnouts video (the first video on the list). This video runs for over an hour, but it shows you how just about anybody can build a good turnout with something like the Fast Tracks jig and tools. The one biggest disadvantages to the Fast Tracks approach is you don't get tie plate and spikehead detail.  Now if you want a nice performing turnout that also looks good, you can use the Central Valley turnout tie kit to build the turnout, since the tie kit has slots in the ties for the rails and the ties have excellent tie plate and spikehead detail. You do have to do a bit more work yourself with the Central Valley turnout tie kits making sure everything is in gauge, however -- but using the CVT ties is still far easier than handlaying a turnout completely from scratch. I'd be in heaven if Fast Tracks offered a version of their turnout jigs that fits the CV turnout ties!

The best part about that video is that they don't skip over stuff.  So many how to videos seem to skip the 'hard' stuff.  Kind of like cooking shows where all the ingredients are already prepared and measured.  And then the finished product comes out of the oven.  And it looks so easy, until you think about it and you realize they never showed how to actually do anything.  But the Fastracks videos take the time to show the dirty work, you can actually see how it is done, warts and all.  (Though not too many warts in the process, with patience and a little practice any modeller can probably do it.)

 

Joe, I think the answer is everyone would like something a bit different (which is why everyone is always complaining about the content in MR, or the food at a restaurant, etc.)

Some people will want exact details, some people just want the meat & potatoes.  As for me, you have me on the edge of my seat - waiting to see how you achieve all of the precise gauging, etc. using the Central Valley kits along with the Fasttracks filing jigs, so that's the part that I'm personally interested in (because from my perspective, that's the BRAND NEW information you're sharing).  The soldering, etc., type information is already somewhat more available.

But, that's just one person's particular perspective on one particular issue.

(I'm on the fence of ordering some MicroEngineering turnouts and giving up on handlaying vs. re-thinking and possibly checking out your CV/Fasttracks method).

Incidentally, I've been a bit of a turnout construction research freak, having aquired many MR back issues on the subject.  All hand-laying techniques that I've researched so far have drawbacks.  I'm waiting to see if your method has the least amount of drawbacks of all (so far, it sounds like it just might).

-James

Let me say this about the soldering techniques:

I don't use the exact methods shown on the Fast Tracks site because if you do you risk melting the plastic CVT ties.

I use a small spade tip instead of a pointy-tip on the soldering iron, since it lets me quickly apply the full heat of the 35 watt iron to the copper plating and base of the rail. The faster you can get in and get out, the less chance the heat has to travel and start melting the nearby plastic ties.

Second, I attach a couple of spring-loaded tweezers to the rail, one on each side of the PC tie, as heat sinks.

Contrary to what Tim of Fast Tracks says, I find using a water-thin rosin flux works just great and the solder flows easily. The only real difference between rosin and acid flux is rosin flux is only an acid under heat, while an acid flux is acid all the time, cold or hot.

If you ever accidentally get any acid flux trapped under the rail, no amount of cleaning will remove it, and you'll find out about it years later, just when you'd rather not. It seems like a flux that's only an acid under heat is the same difference, only better just in case some flux was to ever get trapped under the base of the rail. Better safe than sorry, I always say.  

After reading all of the responses, it looks like the advice given hits the mark really well. The only thing I would add is the good amount of information that Tim Warris (Fast Tracks) provides in his video on the NMRA Specs. If anything it is very informative and details how the NMRA Standards allow a certain amount of compromise within tolerances that must relate and why he builds his jigs to what he calls a reasonable compromise while still holding to those tolerances. I like the way that Mr. Fugate uses the frog/point filing tools from Fast Tracks and fits up the CVT kits for the details. I have struggled with the choice of going CVT or Fast Tracks for some time and it never occurred to me to combine elements of both. Thank you Mr. Fugate.