General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I have read the various threads this week about hand laid turnouts and their superior operation but for those of us who cannot lay our own, how do we tune up a Walthers/Shinohara turnout. The rails are held in place by plastic "spikes" and, it seems, hard to move. The frog is also cast in stone so to speak. I am talking about DCC and HO if that makes a difference.

In my experience, for what it's worth, Shinohara and Peco turnouts need no tuneup.  Atlas turnouts, except their newer code 83 ones made in China, required some sharpening of the point rails and sometimes the frog had to be filed down.  I haven't used any Atlas code 100 products for some time, but assume that they are also made in China now and are probably the same quality as the code 83 line.

Use a NMRA gauge...

David B

There are two basic areas where you need to fine-tune a commercial turnout, and in some cases there's little you can do to really fix them. In other words, the real solution is going with a jig-built turnout using something like the Fast Tracks jigs or the Central Valley turnout kits.

But let's assume you want to do what you can to tune a commercial turnout. There are two areas: mechanical improvements and electrical improvements. 

MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS

I explain some of the mechanical issues here with illustrations.  The two key issues are the frog area and the points area. You need to make sure the points are sharp -- if they are not, take a needle file to them and sharpen the top edge of the points.

The frog area is trickier, because the check guage distance between the frog wing rails and the guard rails is critical to keep the wheels from picking the frog point. If the check guage is too wide, filing the inside of the guard rail might help -- or simply moving the guard rail is possible but could be a lot of work. If the check guage is too narrow, then gluing a styrene or metal shim on the inside of the rail head with superglue is an option.

Using a micrometer is essential to getting these dimensions to be spot-on. You want the check guage in HO to be 0.605 exactly. 

In a well built turnout, the track guage through the points area is at max track guage (0.672), and the track guage through the frog area is at minimum (0.649) to keep the wheels guided through the frog with minimal wandering. If the track guage doesn't meet these guidelines on the commercial turnout, there's just not much you can do. Tearing the rails out of the plastic ties to move them just isn't an option. Laying your own turnout as has been mentioned is the only real way to get this optimum track guage. 

ELECTRICAL ISSUES

With the advent of DCC, having a turnout that's electrically optimum has become a hot topic. In fact, it's got it's own term: DCC friendly, which I discuss here. 

Esentially, you want the ability to use either a powered frog or an unpowered frog (with an unpowered frog being easiest), and you want the points to each be the same electrical polarity as their stock rails. For this to work, each point needs to be electrically isolated from the other.

There are other things you can do to ensure the best electrical continuity through a turnout. First, the closure rails need to be directly wired to the stock rails and not depend on getting power through the points. The best option for getting power to the points is to have a turnout that uses continuous points that are all one-piece with the closure rails -- but I don't know of any commercial turnouts that do this.

Baring the contiuous points, then I recommend soldering some fine jumpers between the closure rails and the points to make sure the points get power. Relying on the contact between the points and the stock rails, or the contact between the points and the closure rails to always be reliable is asking for trouble.

FINAL COMMENTS

You can only do so much to improve a commercial turnout and not all reliability issues can be addressed easily. If you want to solve all the issues with commercial turnouts, you will quickly discover building your own turnouts is less work. IMO, using the Central Valley turnout tie strips and the Fast Tracks point and frog jigs makes hand laying a turnout about as goof-proof and affordable as it gets. And I find it's less work than trying to really fix a commercial turnout's issues.

If you insist on using commercial turnouts, I would recommend the Peco Code 83 line. These are some of the best looking turnouts available, they are DCC friendly, and they are some of the best turnouts as to being in guage. I recommend the insulfrog for DCC, although you may need to alter the frog area slightly to avoid shorts as described here. 

Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to explain and show how to hopefully deal with some of these commercial switch problems.
I am using all Atlas and Model Power code 100 track with the exception of using  Atlas code 83 for my turntable  to roundhouse sections.
I am using the Atlas conversion track to go onto my turntable.
I was a complete neophyte on switches until I read your explanations.I'll try filing a couple of the frogs to a fine point and see what happens and carefully check my gauges with my NMRA gauge.
Removing and moving a guard rail .004" would be quite tricky!
I never realized there was this much discrepancy in tolernaces on commercial switches.
Your explanations, drawings, etc, have been an immense help to me!

THANKS!!!!!

Ed 

Yes,

As per Joe and loathar, taking a needle file to the point and putting a bevel on them so the "feather" or taper into the adjoining rail is a way to minimize derailments.

1)  file the sides of the points to they are sharp and there is no bluntness to them at the point where the wheels travel to the new rail.

2)  file the top of the point at a 45 degree angle to that there is a slight bevel at the top so there isn't a point to pick.

jfugate wrote:

...  In a well built turnout, the track guage through the points area is at max track guage (0.672), and the track guage through the frog area is at minimum (0.649) to keep the wheels guided through the frog with minimal wandering. ... IMO, using the Central Valley turnout tie strips and the Fast Tracks point and frog jigs makes hand laying a turnout about as goof-proof and affordable as it gets. And I find it's less work than trying to really fix a commercial turnout's issues. ...

Thanks for sharing Joe.  Question, the Fast Tracks faq says:

"The track gauge through the Frog and the guardrails is wider than I prefer, it this normal?

The gauge through the frog and the guardrail is within NMRA standards. To accommodate all preferences I have made this in the middle of the limit tolerance that the NMRA suggests. If you think that it should be smaller or larger a custom option is available to accommodate this."

Have you found this mid point gauge to be a problem? or do you special order?

Thanks

Paul 

Bruce, the sharp points are really, really important, as others have said, but I also have found that the blade, the portion of the point tip that runs from the very point back about to the place where you can see a real gap between the stock rail and the closure/points combo rail, sometimes is either too thick, thus pinching the wheels a bit because it tightens the gauge, or it doesn't actually lie flat along the stock rail.  It is not so common as blunt points, of course, but sometimes thinning and shaping the point blade will ease some problems.  It takes a careful and patient hand not to do this while ruining something else about the turnout, so do it fresh and before your second coffee.

Also, you mention the W/S turnouts...I have found that they do not tend to have the problems I talk about, whereas the Peco Streamline sometimes do.  The problem with the W/S is that the throwbar is not held in place with an overcentre spring as the spiffy Pecos have.  So, my curved W/S turnouts will sometimes allow the flanges to pick the points unless I shim under the thowbar with strips of cardboard for the resultant friction to keep the throwbar from wanting to spring back a half-mm or so, just enough to cause a derailment.

Also, if the turnout could not be helped any other way than by moving a guard rail that was just too far away from its stock rail, or if too close, I could cut all the retaining spike heads and file the area flat to clear all the nubs.  Then, I would use a good glue and replace the guard rail to spec.  It might take a whole hour to achieve this, but it would save a costly commercial turnout and only cost you the whole hour to get the fix you need.

-Crandell

IRONROOSTER wrote:

Thanks for sharing Joe.  Question, the Fast Tracks faq says: "The track gauge through the Frog and the guardrails is wider than I prefer, it this normal? The gauge through the frog and the guardrail is within NMRA standards. To accommodate all preferences I have made this in the middle of the limit tolerance that the NMRA suggests. If you think that it should be smaller or larger a custom option is available to accommodate this." Have you found this mid point gauge to be a problem? or do you special order? Paul

Paul:

I use the Central Valley tie kits to place the rails and don't use the Fast Tracks turnout jigs. I prefer minimum guage through the frog, not mid-guage.

I do use the Fast Tracks point filing guage and the frog point soldering gauge, since they make quick work out if these tasks. 

Joe,

How do you control those tolerances with the CV tie kits?  Do you still use an NMRA gauge and a calipers to set those distances?

Also, are you able to have all-metal guard rails and wing rails with the CV tie kits?  (I asked the same question in the Fasttracks thread) - I'm curious to see how you deal with these issues - the CV tiestrip / Fasttracks tools seems like it could be a great combination!

jfugate wrote:

Paul: I use the Central Valley tie kits to place the rails and don't use the Fast Tracks turnout jigs. I prefer minimum guage through the frog, not mid-guage. I do use the Fast Tracks point filing guage and the frog point soldering gauge, since they make quick work out if these tasks.

Joe,

Thanks again.

Paul 

SBCA wrote:

Joe, How do you control those tolerances with the CV tie kits?  Do you still use an NMRA gauge and a calipers to set those distances? Also, are you able to have all-metal guard rails and wing rails with the CV tie kits?  (I asked the same question in the Fasttracks thread) - I'm curious to see how you deal with these issues - the CV tiestrip / Fasttracks tools seems like it could be a great combination!

Tell you what ... I will build up a turnout this weekend and take some stills, and see if I can explain a few details. Since this discussion is getting pretty technical, let's take it offline to my personal web site for those who may be interested.

I'd post it on here but it will be back on page 20 before the week's out and then no one could find it. At least on my personal web site I have total say on making things easy to find.  

Just use the link in my signature to get to my site, and then go to the forum area. I'll start a topic over there to continue the CV turnout construction discussion. 

Awesome Joe!

Looking forward to it.

-James