General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I think Mr. Spacemouse said it best in a long ago post.  Your first car will tell you what you want in a car.  Your first computer will tell you what you want in a computer.  Your first layout will will tell you  what you want out of model railroading.  Quite a few folks here built a small layout first while planning for the "big one".  I think it's human nature for people to plan for what they may never aquire.  One of the benefits of hanging out on this forum is hearing and seeing what others have done.  You may think you know what you want, then you see something else that tickles your fancy.  Planning is exciting for awhile. Doing is much more satisfying for me.  Good luck with your modeling endeavours.

I spent about two months designing my layout using Cadrail.  I probably would have done it faster except that I was waiting to move into a new house and couldn't actually start the layout.  The layout is a double-decker 20x10 in a 1 car garage. 

Anyway, there's probably no right answer here.  One thing you'll find in this hobby is that there are many chicken and egg situations where there is no right order to doing things.  While I would advise reading a bunch of track planning books before starting the layout, you will change your mind once you get started and you will end up changing your track plan.  That's one reason to go for a track planning software package.  They make updating and revising your plan very easy.

I would suggest trying to get the mainline planned out and then starting construction.  The location of sidings, passing tracks, yards, etc. will be driven heavily by scenic features and structures so trying to plan all of that out in advance is probably unnecessary. 

Best of luck. 

I have been planning for 30 years.

Only now I have a specific space. I have a small list of wants for that space. As long I can meet those needs the trains will run well in that space.

Im already running trains on Kato track in a corner of that space. I have posted videos despite bare wood and some dangling wiring. Get the trains running. Once you do, you will proceed.

Read everything. Read some more and when you finish, download off the net and read again.

DCC is a journey. Not a necessity for life. One man's MRC decoder is another's junk. I prefer QSI but am resigned to manufactors dumping QSI in favor of do it yourself programming where YOU get sound YOU want for YOUR engine off the internet. They have more important things to do like shuffle import papers from china.

Dont get me started on some of the problems I see in the hobby.

Dont let me scare you off. The Hobby is supposed to be something that keeps you off the street and out of trouble. It may even provide you with relief from stress and the associated medical problems. When budgeted properly it will be manageable.

One rule:

Be very careful what you buy. We aint seeing boxcars for 2.50 anymore. They are more like 30 dollars and built pretty well. In fact, some of my 15 to 20 car trains represent a thousand dollars rolling down the track. Im not saying this to brag but to emphasize that it takes alot of budgeting and time to buy good quality products that SHOULD last a long time.

Dont look now but 24 Athearn blue boxes just passed my desk with a combined total of about 250 dollars; not including the engine or caboose.

If you see something you like inside a hobby shop. Buy it. It will not be there the next time you visit. In fact the hobby has been moved towards pre-order production ONLY... if sufficient orders are met to satisfy someone's need for profits in business. No longer are we carrying a nice product unless you find it on Ebay or online.

That little bottle of scenic material will be empty in a few shakes and you covered only a foot of space. back to the hobby shop you go.

Try to find a good hobby shop. One that does not hide behind bullet proof windows or extremely grumpy staff... or worse... stay out of those big box retailers who think they have a hobby section.

Even better, find a Club. There you learn about politics and those who are considered strange people who dwells in the dark basement at 3 in the morning while the town slumbers. You might learn something good to use yourself in the hobby.

And one final thing.

The glossy railroads and complete worlds in all it's finest you see on MR magazines are there for us to ogle and to be inspired. These mega railroads have taken far more resources than most of us can afford and deserve our praise.

So does the little 4x8 layout in the corner. Or even a 1x2 diorama. Whatever you do, try your very best and no one will laugh. We promise.

I represent the other side

1. Decide what you want. I took 2 weeks to decide I wanted a canyon, a mine and a lumber camp.

2. Let those wants decide the layout. It took me a week to get a track plan on paper that hook it all together in the space I had.

3. Lay it out full size on the floor(table) with blue masking tape to make sure it works: no 16 in curves, no 5% grades, no # 1 turnouts etc.

4. Keep it simple at first.

5. Buy the track and road bed and lay it.

6. Run some trains.

7. Fix it latter. If you really like this, you will build another layout anyway. This is my 5th over 60 years. ( my best so far)

Not to offend the planer types, but to indicate there is another way for those few of us who want to get at it. I was running trains in 3 months. I am still changing trackwork, but that is the most prototypical part of my layout.

My layout had been in the planning stages for over two years, and is not the original plan as it has evolved over time and many hours of research have proven a plus in the "final" plan.

I use 3rd PlanIt track plan software to design the layout plans, and I have been using it for about 3 years now and find it a useful tool in creating accurate scale drawings. The plans can be rendered in 3D as well; this helps in the creativity and building stages, and is a great guideline when it comes time to actually build out the benchwork, roadbed, track, etc. I also print out the 1:1 drawings and use them as templates when cutting sub-roadbed and laying down roadbed and track, a very helpful tool!

The track plan is not based on any prototype track arrangements per se, but has its roots in typical prototype operations using a lot of compression. After reading many articles, books, and forums I have devised the plans below with much influence from the designing for realistic operations angle.

As stated earlier, this plan has been in the works for over two years, having originally created a plan based on local operations in the New Orleans, LA and south Louisiana area that included many features and operations that I have chosen to omit on the current plan. Having relocated to Wake Forest, North Carolina area in January 2006, mainly due to Hurricane Katrina, I have had to be a bit more creative in my overall operations plan since there are no Kansas City Southern (KCS) tracks near this area.

I have chose to keep the Southern and Norfolk Southern (NS) railroads as the main feature for operations on this layout, as there are many NS lines currently in use in this area. CSX is also a major player here, but at this time I have not considered it for inclusion. I will keep the KCS as a through freight and off site running only for added operation session interest. I will also have Amtrak passenger traffic moving between two stations as well there will be simulated offsite activity. I will also have KCS and Southern passenger traffic mixed into different operating sessions.

While I am currently about 90% completed with the track for the lower deck and the around the walls section leading up to the upper deck I have already decided to re-draw that level. Construction on the upper deck has not been started yet, so I feel it necessary to re-design and re-draw that level again. I have learned more since the initial plan was made, and want to incorporate that into the upper level plan.

As some have mentioned above; flexibility, budget, time, and the willingness to learn are all factors that equate to the right mix for your layout plan.

Cheers,

Ryan

The NMRA has a beginner's section here http://www.nmra.org/beginner/ which has a track plan.  4 more here http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=603, these have some benchwork plans also.  There are other plans on the net and track plan books.  For a 4x10 you can take a 4x8 and stretch the tracks.

So pick a plan that looks interesting and go with it.  You won't really know what you like until you have gotten your feet wet. One of the traps in this hobby is "analysis paralysis", so just dive in and get some trains running.

Once you have a little experience, then create your own plan.  The best book on the subject is "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" by  John Armstrong.  That book alone will enable you to plan your 2nd layout.  Of course you may be having so much fun with the first layout that you don't get to the second layout - so what, this is a hobby.

Enjoy

Paul 

  Welcome, brother, to the great planning debate.

In my experience, if you already have some things you want, look at some `stock' plans (Atlas plan book, magazine projects, on-line resources...) and pick one that seems to be close to what you want.  Then build it - but not in such a way that every single part is set in stone.  Be aware that your first layout is almost certain not to be your last, that your wants will change and that your skills will mature.  Your plan should be a guideline, not a straitjacket.

There seems to be a time curve in the planning process:

• First layout, to somebody else's plan - hours from picking a plan to starting construction.
• First layout to your own plan - anywhere from a couple of days to several months, depending on the size and complexity of the layout and the compatibility (or lack thereof) of the elements you want to include.
• First attempt to model every aspect of the (fillintheblank) - months of research, followed by a detailed plan that locates every item down to individual chunks of ballast, all before beginning construction.  (This one never gets built as designed and is very unlikely to come anywhere near completion.)
• Final layout being built to a general scheme that has been the subject of four decades of thought, research and false starts - the overall concept is set in stone, while everything else is set in Jell-O.  Basic benchwork configuration is set by space and access requirements, but specific sections get built when there's a need to support railroad construction.  General track schematic, again, set in stone - but detailed track locating is done just in advance of the tracklayers.  Electrical system is open-plan, adapted on the spot to the track that actually gets built.  Planning and building are just about simultaneous acts - but the entirety will take years to complete and more than the owner's remaining lifetime to finish.

I, personally, fit that last description.  My benchwork is about 35% complete, tracklaying is approaching 11% (slowly,) electricals 5% (not including temporary arrangements for operational testing.)  Scenery will get started after I build my way out of what will be hidden staging.

After close to 60 years of layout construction (my own and clubs) I can get away with that.  It's not the way I started!

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Lots of good stuff already from the other people but I'll throw in my two cents, since it seems to be an idea not already presented. 

venckman wrote:

I'm looking at a space of about 4' by 10' for a starter HO layout.  I'm reading a lot in the magazines, etc. about how important track planning is before you start building away to make sure that you have enjoyable operations, etc.

The big point here is "that you have enjoyable operations".   That is a very personal type of thing.   How does one new to the hobby know what is enjoyable to them?   Here is what I do.  As others have suggested I look through the various prefab track plans in books (often available at local libraries) for things that catch my eye.   I get just a bunch of sectional track of all shapes and sizes.  I then set out a blank space of the layout space (4x10 in your case) and assemble the track pieces into something similar to the ones in the book.  I then play with the trains on that plan for a while deciding what I like and don't like about it.  I make notes and try another plan.  After five or six temporary layouts I have a more general idea what are "enjoyable" operations for me (or my clients).  From those notes I get serious and try to design something specific toward those ideas.  Once again I assemble the design in a temporary fashion and run it for a longer period of time.    When satisfied I draw up the design and catalog it.  The appropriate pieces are purchased to make a permanent version.  Yes, this will cost more in the long run because of redundant sectional track, but it is fun fun, fun, trying out different things.  Through the years I've assembled quite a catalog of "enjoyable" layouts.  I ALWAYS have a box of snap-track and a blank area of at least 4x8 to try things on.

I guess I'm curious what some of you have done when starting a new layout.  Do you start with structure modeling and then work on the track layout, or do you get the tracks and benchwork built and then start on the scenery/structures, etc.?

My son's 4x8 started with the track layout and then we filled in the structures.  It took me about three months to get the design to a point I liked it.  Even then after it was built, just two weeks later we made a fairly major change (added a run around track off the main).  

I had an HO set when I was a kid and drove my parents nuts with all my track plans.

Last Christmas I bought a Bachman trainset. I spent three months buying more snap track and trains and elevation jigs for a 42" x 12' layout on my dining room table.

I spent two months planning my downstairs 13' x 22' shelf layout in N scale. I drew my plan with graph paper and a compass and ruler (works well). Most of this design stuff involves "tangents". If you know what a tangent is, you can probably draw a trackplan.

 Biggest decisions were HO or N? Which brand of track? Which brand of switch? Benchwork height? Foam or plywood? Most of the other questions were answered by two words, Woodland Scenic. I got most of these decisions right and can live with the rest.

I now have 170' of track with 25 switches and it runs fairly well. I ran my Bachman trolley for an hour without stopping last night with no derail. 12 car two engine freight train can make it 4 times around average without derail or decouple (I hope).  My trackwork could have been better and I wonder if  I will EVER finish all that scenery, but I have gotten further than most and it's been a LOT of fun building my "Colorado Western" N guage, Rocky Mountain DCC layout.

I am 2/3 done installing my rock, and about 1/2 ballasted and 1/4 groundcover. My yard needs more track and switches and the list goes on and on, but if I put in another month of solid everyday effort, I'll probably only have another several years worth of work, who knows for sure.

I took about a month researching. I wanted to model the NS railroads in Alabama. I determined what part I wanted to model, then I started drawing. I found Atlas RTS and started using it to plan my layout. It took about 4 months to get a general plan. Then I built a building for it. I then put the basic bench work in.

I thought I would lay all track first then put in buildings. I found out, I had to get buildings to put some track in. I also bought engines. I am running DCC. I test track as it was laid. I also put some scenery in. It took about 3 years to lay all the track. I have a 14x28 foot building. I made about 25 changes to the plans by the time I was finished laying track. I had to change some track around because I go an SD70 and it could not make all the curves in the layout. I had to re-align some track.

Planning never stops.

Craig

It is too bad that Kalmbach's {i}HO Railroad That Grows[/i] is not still in print; this layout was a consolidation of a project railroad done in Model Railroader Magazine in the 1950s. It is a jimdandy beginning layout; I built it as an N Scale - but full sized version - almost twenty five years ago.

Over the course of the past twenty-five years Model Railroader Magazine has done a number of project railroads and many of these have been reprinted as Special Editions and are available from Kalmbach; they usually have the word Central somewhere in the title.  In addition to this there is a plethora of 4X8 plans in Kalmbach's 101 Track Plans book and other 4X8s are frequently printed in the hobby magazines.  I know, you are looking for 4X10 track plans; set your 4X8 onto your 4X10 space and you will have an extra two feet someplace and I know model rails who would sell their kids to get two extra feet - just joking of course - but remember that your 4X is going to stay the same and that is going to be the restrictive measurement as far as track radius goes.

One day you will open a book or a magazine and run onto a 4X8 and that will be it!!!

4X10' Thats a nice space. Unless you'd like to reinvent the wheel so to speak, I'd check out a lot of 4X8 plans. There are hundreds out there. Pick one out,extend it a couple feet ,to fit your space. And build it. By extending a 4X8 you can lengthen yards and mainline runs and still keep the cleverness of the plan you picked. If your layout was gonna be huge ,then I would spend a lot more time planning,but I bet you a dollar to a donut that no matter how well you plan, your gonna find things you'll need/want to change before your happy. Thats part of the coolness of the hobby.

Well, if yoiu were overwhelmed before, you are flat buried now.

It's not super complicated once you get into it through. Planning takes as long as it takes. When you can answer the following questions, you're ready to build benchwork and start laying track.

1. How much space do you have available? See? You already finished this one.

2. How many, and what type industries do you plan to serve? How much space are they realistically going to take? Buildings, roads, parking lots, support buildings, railroad sidings, power lines, etc., all take space. Are your a builder, terrain maker, wiring guy, locomotive driver, car detailer, what do you like to do? Once a layout is finished, the amount of fun you can have with it drops considerably. Getting there is half the fun. How will you spend that time?

3. How many trains do you want on the table at any given time? Unrailing, re-railing, storing and arranging trains can take up a lot of time, so many people like to build room for staged trains into the layout. Staged trains can be hidden under scenery opr behind backdrops, and can also be parked on sidings etc.

4. How do you plan to run your trains? One at a time? Five at a time? How many mainlines? Are the mainlines point to point or loops? Do you need to turn trains around on the table, or do they always run in the same direction? Reversing loops and wyes take up space, doing it by hand is slow and not exactly prototypical. Do you see yourself enjoying switching or long mainline runs more often?

5. What era or time period? Small old time steam, and/or 1940s-1950s 4 axle diesel will be more forgiving of 18" radius curves and #4 turnouts than will giant steam and 6 axle diesels. Modern passenger ops look better on bigger curves and may derail on 18 inchers. Passenger stations can eat up real estate too.

6. DC or DCC?

7.Want a yard? How big? Will switching operations foul the main(s)?

8.Any special terrain? Water features, bridges, mountains, tunnels, etc?

That will get you started. Once you can answer those questions, you might make a priority list, must-haves, might-be-nice, could-live-without-but-if-there's-room, etc. Then you can download some track planning software and get to work. Once you have a general idea where the track goes, where the roads and rivers go, where the hills and valleys go, and where the cities, towns and industries go, it's about time to start building. Don't sweat every tiny detail, many of the little things fall into place as you go.

Ignore a big thing though, like one of those listed above, and you will spend a lot of time tearing out, and may never get it the way you want. Just decide what's important and proceed from there, step by step. 

We have only one rule on the layout here, which you are free to adopt or not.

If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

 

:-)