If Amtrak IS Dismantled, Perhaps Time to Force The Railroads back into the Passenger Business

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXrules4eva

I miss the good old days when Conrail,

YOu really need to check your resourses, Conrail never ran passenger trains.

New York Central, PRR and other railroads had passanger service. It was great! Hay don't get me wrong I still like Amtrak :). All in all I think ur right about the Bush administration's softness for airlines, and coldness for railroads. Also some of those airlines DO deserve to plummit like Air Tran. Bush may be a prime example of the many other officials who are in office, they don't know or care to know jack about a vital part of the transportation industry RAILROADS!

Amturds is a dead duck and good riddance. If you wnat it wher you live - you pay for it. I am tired of my tax money going to BS things. Granted amturds is a small part of the federal budget, but it is a good place to start cutting.

But. . . .anyway, some of the major class 1s like CSX, should think about providing some passanger service; mabe CSX or NS could provide service on routs like Sand Patch or some place were Amtrak doesn't provide service. Then again some freight rails may not want to do passenger service because, it would cost them billions of dollors for new infrastructure, and managment. :(

The freight RR's will NEVER start their own passenger service. They were bleeding red all over their books before amturds and they are not THAT stupid as many of you seem to be. It is time to remove your head from the sand an WAKE UP and realize that long didtance passenger trains should die.

I swore Conrail did early passaner runs on the NEC but I guess I was wrong. . .. OPPS [banghead]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by rangerjim94

I very much fear that if the fascist Bush Administration wins reelection, Amtrak will be as good as toast. Which is why I am entertaining thoughts that perhaps consideration should be given to forcing the railroads back into the passenger busiss with the equpment now in existence and addition equipment be provi forcing the railroads back .

Now who is the Fascist? "Lets force the railroads" Good answer, "II Duci".
Mousillini made the trains run on time, but Benito would have his hands full
with Amtrak. How about a discussion without the name calling? At least you
acknowledge President Bush was elected, Truth is we should fund Amtrak
as necessary and give them a real shot at making it or cut it off and be done
with it. The current minimal funding will solve nothing.

Ford Simcox

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Posted by Anonymous on Wed, Sep 15 2004 9:10 PM

Not to imply any connections to modern events, a leader creating and repeating a lie often is enough to turn it into fact in peoples minds. Such is the case with the myth that "Mussolini made the trains run on time."

The Italian Railway was in sad shape during WWI. Significant improvements were made though largely prior to the Fascists coming to power. And despite the repairs, timetables were often more estimates than schedules.

But you're right, he would have to do a lot more spin to convince us that Amtrak runs on time.

Wayne

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Posted by passengerfan on Thu, Sep 16 2004 7:38 AM

I can just picture the railroads being forced back into the passenger business what are they going to use containers with windows cut in the sides. I can just picture a double stack EMPIRE BUILDER or COAST STARLIGHT. The freight railroads will never get back into the passenger business and thats the way it is. But people need to write their congress persons and senators if they want Amtrak to be a viable option. The long distance trains appear to be running full, only additional cars will increase their capacity and Amtrak is not getting any funding for this purpose. It is estimated that Amtrak could fill twice as many cars as they operate now, if they had them to operate and this not just during peak travel seasons but on a year round basis.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thu, Sep 16 2004 7:58 AM

How about leveling the playing field ? All USA RR"S pay the same as truckers do for the road ?

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Posted by Junctionfan on Thu, Sep 16 2004 8:25 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ill tell you what,Ill get over it when we TAX payers stop paying for a stupid system that makes NO profit. Every god damn I turn around the stupid government forks out millions of tax paying money to keep those EMPTY trains running. The American public will never give up their cars,"never".
What makes me so mad is, why can't amtrak stop going after the tax payers every time for help just to bail them out? Amtrak just must love to milk us tax payers to death.[:(!]

The best way to compete with cars is don't. Run more auto trains or starts bringing auto train strings along instead of the MHCs and the roadrailers. Works well in Austria on the Vienna / Innsbruck/ Salzburg run (total of 7 hours), so it could work even better in North America.....As long as they get the funding to do it.

Andrew

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Posted by Anonymous on Thu, Sep 16 2004 9:34 AM

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to put the 2 or 3 passenger cars a lot of these trains run with, on the Z-trains and pay the RR's whatever they charge to haul private cars??? [:)]

IMO a fundamental problem with federal government rail-anything in the U.S. is the politicians from 50 states all wanting a piece of every dollar spent whether they need it or not. To make matters worse the places most interested in passenger trains, high speed rail, are often Democratic while the Federal government is Republican. For example, post 9/11 even the so-called Speaker of the House(R-IL) couldn't get Homeland Security funding to protect Sears tower.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thu, Sep 16 2004 12:17 PM

I would think that a return to the so-called "good old days" prior to May 1, 1971 would accomplish next to nothing related to passenger service since it's questionable as to how much service would have survived and for how long if the Rail Passenger Service Act was not passed.

Most of the service that lasted past 1968 was probably on the verge of discontinuance anyway. Most of the mail contracts were cancelled (RPO's) or transferred to freight trains so the losses were becoming intolerable. It's interesting to note that the Santa Fe's passenger operating ratio at that time was around 200%, and this is a service that most of us considered to be first-rate. Railroads that operated a less luxurious service had better operating ratios, but they still usually exceeded 150%.

On a related note, the SP once went to the California PUC requesting a 111% increase in the fares for its Peninsula commute service. This amount of this increase was based on the fares that would be necessary to cover costs and provide a reasonable return on investment. Needless to say, the approved increase was much smaller. SP elected to eat the loss because the political costs of going for the full increase requested would be intolerable.

I think that we need to remind ourselves that a large chunk of the service in existence just prior to May 1, 1971 was little more than a coach and snack bar or a mail schedule that lost its mail contract.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Thu, Sep 16 2004 4:32 PM

THE RAILROADS:

"Passengers? We don't need no stinkin' passengers!"

That's all Amtrak is, a means to force the railroads into the passenger business. As a BUSINESS, passenger rail is a loser. Would you consider horse and buggy if you had a car?

I'm back!

Follow the progress:

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1

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Posted by Anonymous on Thu, Sep 16 2004 5:36 PM

YES!
Wouldn't have to hear about the BITCHING about the stupid price of GAS!

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Posted by railman on Thu, Sep 16 2004 7:53 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, let us go back to Railman's Opinion 101 for a moment for a startling and amazing statement-


The Government is NOT a business.


Nor should it be run like one. It's supposed to be there for the common good, the greater good, whatever. Businesses only answer to one- the dollar. Good or bad, Amtrak is Amtrak, and although I'd like to have all the private roads back, it's time to rally round the flag and get Amtrak up to snuff! We, as the only superpower in the world, should be ashamed for having a third-rate passenger rail system.

Don't forget, "America won't give up their cars" line quoters, that the interstate highway system is in for it's own day of reconing pretty soon, too. How many referandums have passed in YOUR city to expand that highway a few lanes or even to repair it? Not too many. Most of that was built in the 70's, by the GOVERNMENT! Gasp!

For the faithful- we are slowly getting our network back- look at all the new commuter lines coming down the line. We've got to get behind Amtrak now, and show doubters what a FIRST CLASS AMTRAK would look like- without duct taped seats, late starts, and grubby food. Take away the ammuniton and the attackers won't have anything to shoot at Amtrak- except for words of praise, dollar bills, and maybe a question- "When can we have one going to ________(city of your choice)?"

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Posted by edblysard on Sat, Sep 18 2004 5:18 AM

Trainfinder...
Please go back and read Amtraks charter...
No where does it give Amtrak the right of emmiment domain, that right is reserved for the local, state and federal goverment to acquire real property in order to proceed with projects considered as "public/works/projects".

Amtrak has no such authority.

Our government cant force any private or public business to do anything, other than follow exsisting laws, except in time of national emergency or war.

As for Amtrak being a stupid waste of taxpayers money, because it dosnt turn a profit, well, neither does your local bus line, or you local police dept, fire dept, ambulance service, your fish and game dept...the list goes on and on....

I wish folks would go and read the Constitution and it's amendments, along with the Bill of Rights, and Amtraks actual charter....
Trainfinder, the Bill of Rights will explain why our government cant not, and should not, be allowed to just go and take something from the citizens....by the way, its not a crime to screw up your business here, no matter how "important" some might feel that business is....
Thats called free enterprise...survival of the fittest works in business.

Go read the Stagger Act, it will explaine why the Common Carrier law no longer really applies to passenger service via rail.
You should also check out the STB's charter, you will see why the ICC is no longer...

Before you guys continue to parrot crap you heard around the table, while sipping your lite beer, you should do the research your self, you would be amazed how much real information is there, and you might learn why our governement dosn't just "take over" and "do things"...

Coulda, woulda and shoulda are great, if you talking about fishing, but if you want to discuss things of this nature, and not sound dumb as dirt, then get the facts and figures first, not just repeat opinions and heresay.

As for the original posting here, I really want to know...
Which state in the union has gone bankrupt?

Ed

23 17 46 11

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Posted by Anonymous on Sat, Sep 18 2004 9:03 AM

Face it Amtrack is dead. It is the same as all other government run businesses i.e. schools, airports, toll roads, parks to name a few. It is just another inefficient money pit. The only way it will ever function is to be privately owned.
If the government stopped the funding private investors would buy it, negotiate with the railroads,and another successful business would would be making a profit.
If you people think socialism is so great go to Canada or Europe.

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Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Sat, Sep 18 2004 9:34 AM

Thanks Ed, I tried to say that eminent domain stuff back on the topic with the "F" word, but it all got deleted.

As for Railman's comments about Amtrak not being a business, but rather a government project, that part is true, but the railroads are businesses. As Ed said there is no power of eminent domain in the charter. So, WHO'S FINGERS ARE IN WHO'S PIE???

I'm back!

Follow the progress:

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1

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Posted by Junctionfan on Sat, Sep 18 2004 10:01 AM

I'm afraid to say anything............................[:D][}:)][:-,]

Andrew

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Home»Discussion Forums»General Discussion (Trains.com)»If Amtrak IS Dismantled, Perhaps Time to Force The Railroads back into the Passenger Business

[Anonymous]

Not to imply any connections to modern events, a leader creating and repeating a lie often is enough to turn it into fact in peoples minds. Such is the case with the myth that "Mussolini made the trains run on time."

The Italian Railway was in sad shape during WWI. Significant improvements were made though largely prior to the Fascists coming to power. And despite the repairs, timetables were often more estimates than schedules.

But you're right, he would have to do a lot more spin to convince us that Amtrak runs on time.

Wayne

[passengerfan]

I can just picture the railroads being forced back into the passenger business what are they going to use containers with windows cut in the sides. I can just picture a double stack EMPIRE BUILDER or COAST STARLIGHT. The freight railroads will never get back into the passenger business and thats the way it is. But people need to write their congress persons and senators if they want Amtrak to be a viable option. The long distance trains appear to be running full, only additional cars will increase their capacity and Amtrak is not getting any funding for this purpose. It is estimated that Amtrak could fill twice as many cars as they operate now, if they had them to operate and this not just during peak travel seasons but on a year round basis.

[Anonymous]

How about leveling the playing field ? All USA RR"S pay the same as truckers do for the road ?

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ill tell you what,Ill get over it when we TAX payers stop paying for a stupid system that makes NO profit. Every god damn I turn around the stupid government forks out millions of tax paying money to keep those EMPTY trains running. The American public will never give up their cars,"never".
What makes me so mad is, why can't amtrak stop going after the tax payers every time for help just to bail them out? Amtrak just must love to milk us tax payers to death.[:(!]

The best way to compete with cars is don't. Run more auto trains or starts bringing auto train strings along instead of the MHCs and the roadrailers. Works well in Austria on the Vienna / Innsbruck/ Salzburg run (total of 7 hours), so it could work even better in North America.....As long as they get the funding to do it.

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to put the 2 or 3 passenger cars a lot of these trains run with, on the Z-trains and pay the RR's whatever they charge to haul private cars??? [:)]

IMO a fundamental problem with federal government rail-anything in the U.S. is the politicians from 50 states all wanting a piece of every dollar spent whether they need it or not. To make matters worse the places most interested in passenger trains, high speed rail, are often Democratic while the Federal government is Republican. For example, post 9/11 even the so-called Speaker of the House(R-IL) couldn't get Homeland Security funding to protect Sears tower.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I would think that a return to the so-called "good old days" prior to May 1, 1971 would accomplish next to nothing related to passenger service since it's questionable as to how much service would have survived and for how long if the Rail Passenger Service Act was not passed.

Most of the service that lasted past 1968 was probably on the verge of discontinuance anyway. Most of the mail contracts were cancelled (RPO's) or transferred to freight trains so the losses were becoming intolerable. It's interesting to note that the Santa Fe's passenger operating ratio at that time was around 200%, and this is a service that most of us considered to be first-rate. Railroads that operated a less luxurious service had better operating ratios, but they still usually exceeded 150%.

On a related note, the SP once went to the California PUC requesting a 111% increase in the fares for its Peninsula commute service. This amount of this increase was based on the fares that would be necessary to cover costs and provide a reasonable return on investment. Needless to say, the approved increase was much smaller. SP elected to eat the loss because the political costs of going for the full increase requested would be intolerable.

I think that we need to remind ourselves that a large chunk of the service in existence just prior to May 1, 1971 was little more than a coach and snack bar or a mail schedule that lost its mail contract.

[Big_Boy_4005]

THE RAILROADS:

"Passengers? We don't need no stinkin' passengers!"

That's all Amtrak is, a means to force the railroads into the passenger business. As a BUSINESS, passenger rail is a loser. Would you consider horse and buggy if you had a car?

[Anonymous]

YES!
Wouldn't have to hear about the BITCHING about the stupid price of GAS!

[railman]

Ladies and gentlemen, let us go back to Railman's Opinion 101 for a moment for a startling and amazing statement-


The Government is NOT a business.


Nor should it be run like one. It's supposed to be there for the common good, the greater good, whatever. Businesses only answer to one- the dollar. Good or bad, Amtrak is Amtrak, and although I'd like to have all the private roads back, it's time to rally round the flag and get Amtrak up to snuff! We, as the only superpower in the world, should be ashamed for having a third-rate passenger rail system.

Don't forget, "America won't give up their cars" line quoters, that the interstate highway system is in for it's own day of reconing pretty soon, too. How many referandums have passed in YOUR city to expand that highway a few lanes or even to repair it? Not too many. Most of that was built in the 70's, by the GOVERNMENT! Gasp!

For the faithful- we are slowly getting our network back- look at all the new commuter lines coming down the line. We've got to get behind Amtrak now, and show doubters what a FIRST CLASS AMTRAK would look like- without duct taped seats, late starts, and grubby food. Take away the ammuniton and the attackers won't have anything to shoot at Amtrak- except for words of praise, dollar bills, and maybe a question- "When can we have one going to ________(city of your choice)?"

[edblysard]

Trainfinder...
Please go back and read Amtraks charter...
No where does it give Amtrak the right of emmiment domain, that right is reserved for the local, state and federal goverment to acquire real property in order to proceed with projects considered as "public/works/projects".

Amtrak has no such authority.

Our government cant force any private or public business to do anything, other than follow exsisting laws, except in time of national emergency or war.

As for Amtrak being a stupid waste of taxpayers money, because it dosnt turn a profit, well, neither does your local bus line, or you local police dept, fire dept, ambulance service, your fish and game dept...the list goes on and on....

I wish folks would go and read the Constitution and it's amendments, along with the Bill of Rights, and Amtraks actual charter....
Trainfinder, the Bill of Rights will explain why our government cant not, and should not, be allowed to just go and take something from the citizens....by the way, its not a crime to screw up your business here, no matter how "important" some might feel that business is....
Thats called free enterprise...survival of the fittest works in business.

Go read the Stagger Act, it will explaine why the Common Carrier law no longer really applies to passenger service via rail.
You should also check out the STB's charter, you will see why the ICC is no longer...

Before you guys continue to parrot crap you heard around the table, while sipping your lite beer, you should do the research your self, you would be amazed how much real information is there, and you might learn why our governement dosn't just "take over" and "do things"...

Coulda, woulda and shoulda are great, if you talking about fishing, but if you want to discuss things of this nature, and not sound dumb as dirt, then get the facts and figures first, not just repeat opinions and heresay.

As for the original posting here, I really want to know...
Which state in the union has gone bankrupt?

Ed

[Anonymous]

Face it Amtrack is dead. It is the same as all other government run businesses i.e. schools, airports, toll roads, parks to name a few. It is just another inefficient money pit. The only way it will ever function is to be privately owned.
If the government stopped the funding private investors would buy it, negotiate with the railroads,and another successful business would would be making a profit.
If you people think socialism is so great go to Canada or Europe.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Ed, I tried to say that eminent domain stuff back on the topic with the "F" word, but it all got deleted.

As for Railman's comments about Amtrak not being a business, but rather a government project, that part is true, but the railroads are businesses. As Ed said there is no power of eminent domain in the charter. So, WHO'S FINGERS ARE IN WHO'S PIE???

[Junctionfan]

I'm afraid to say anything............................[:D][}:)][:-,]