Single Point Turnouts

[Jetrock]

Sacramento is located in a valley between the coastal range and the Sierra Nevada--it is flat, flat, flat. We get a bit of Delta breeze, so we're better off than other parts of the Sacramento/San Joaquin Valley but it can still get pretty toasty here in deep summer. I think our coolest day of the last two weeks had a high of 98 or 99 degrees.

I'm curious, though--if you're not modeling "formerly electric", are you going to run overhead wire?

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

The elevation of Sacramento is about 20 feet above sea level and it is too far inland to get the cool sea breeze.

My geography's out of whack then; I had always thought Sacramento was much higher than that.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dinwitty

A single point turnout is no more difficult to build then a two point turnout...

I have built them.
I started to build a North Shore line terminal trackage but had to take it apart for moving reasons. going to rebuild it.

Get your feet wet and build a normal switch.

You may be able to use Orrs Sp device.

I expect that's what I'll do. I thnk I'll plan on using "normal" turnouts for most trackage and build a single point turnout in a non-critical (and easily replaced) location. I'll try to use the ORR point and mate castings or maybe wind up casting my own. But that 6 1/8" radius (and some replies to this topic) scared me off ORR's turnouts. I can live with excessive overhang (in a crowded water front area) but I'm not ready to chain cars together as the prototype sometimes had to do. That chain would be just too small for my fat fingers.

Chuck

[dinwitty]

A single point turnout is no more difficult to build then a two point turnout...

I have built them.
I started to build a North Shore line terminal trackage but had to take it apart for moving reasons. going to rebuild it.

Get your feet wet and build a normal switch.

You may be able to use Orrs Sp device.

[DSchmitt]

The elevation of Sacramento is about 20 feet above sea level and it is too far inland to get the cool sea breeze.

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock
....we've had 100-110 degree days and my shelf layout is in the (un-air-conditioned) garage, so I have done more planning than producing lately too!

Didn't think it got that warm in Sacramento; I've always imagined Sacramento as being high enough and far enough north to be more temperate. We've already had several 100+ degree days with more to come this summer so I know what you mean about not doing any railroading in an un-air-conditioned garage. I don't have the nerve to even plan a railroad in the garage. It's not real comfortable when the outside temperature is in the 30s (or lower) either.

OTOH...I did see some pretty spiffy single room air conditioners advertised on TV the other day. They only need a 3" diameter hole in the wall to connect the inside and outside parts of the unit. Hmmmm.

Chuck

[Jetrock]

Well okay then--actually my "formerly" electric line will eventually have both electric and diesel operation (the line I model ran both from 1946-1953.) I assumed you were running diesels because your opening message mentions "I'm not modeling traction."

I've got a shelf layout too. My current set of something-resembling-results can be seen at http://www.emrl.com/~jetrock/fubar/ although most of them are getting kind of old--out here in West California we've had 100-110 degree days and my shelf layout is in the (un-air-conditioned) garage, so I have done more planning than producing lately too!

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

cefinkjr: Good luck, please post photos of your results! It sounds like we have similar modeling concepts (44 tonners and other light diesels running on formerly electric interuban freight lines) and I'm curious to see how yours turns out. I chickened out and use Peco "Setrack" two-point turnouts--not a single-pointer, but sharper than a #4 with a curved frog, and close enough for my purposes.

I was with you until you got to the "formerly electric ...". I'm thinking more in terms of a shelf layout (because that's all the room I have) representing part of a World War II (specifically 1943) port in Camelot, EV. (East Virginia not on your maps? I'll bet the state of West California isn't either.)

As for photos of results, that will probably be a while given my track record for planning versus producing. [swg]

Chuck

[Jetrock]

cefinkjr: Good luck, please post photos of your results! It sounds like we have similar modeling concepts (44 tonners and other light diesels running on formerly electric interuban freight lines) and I'm curious to see how yours turns out. I chickened out and use Peco "Setrack" two-point turnouts--not a single-pointer, but sharper than a #4 with a curved frog, and close enough for my purposes.

[PASMITH]

The November 1971 MR clinic shows how single point turnouts are used on Dual gauge turntables. A diagram is included.

Peter Smith, Memphis

[cefinkjr]

See my replies below in blue.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

The problem with 44 tonners and Orr turnouts: Unless you have a trolley pole on your 44 tonner and powered overhead, you can't use Orr turnouts. They're cast as a single piece, which means both rails will have a common ground. Didn't know that. I suppose with some fairly extensive surgery you could turn it into a two-rail system but it would be rather a lot of work. Agreed but I think my trusty Dremel would serve as a pretty good scalpel in this case.

In my own experiences running 44 tonners hauling freight around tight curves, anything sharper than 10" and things tend to come uncoupled. This was true on the prototype as well--the really sharp street trackage was not used for freight, or when it was, only special boxcars designed for trolley/interurban service was used (with rounded ends, radial couplers, and short length) to manage the sharp trackage. Anything that hauled conventional freight cars needed more radius--in my own experience, 10-12" is sufficient.

Even a 44 tonner by itself will not do well on sharper than an 8" curve--again, from my own twisted experiments in super-sharp trolley curves. Most steeplecabs and interurbans couldn't do it either--except for the really short, lightweight steeplecabs, which are smaller than 44 tonners (the MRR Warehouse GE steeplecab kit, for example, has a shorter wheelbase than a Bachmann 44 tonner, so it can handle 6" curves the 44 tonner can't.) That does it; back to the drawing board. On the other hand, ORR also offers "Single Point Point-Mate Assemblies " (single point turnouts without frogs) which he says "have a slightly larger radius". I might be able to do something with those and scratch built frogs.

[Jetrock]

The problem with 44 tonners and Orr turnouts: Unless you have a trolley pole on your 44 tonner and powered overhead, you can't use Orr turnouts. They're cast as a single piece, which means both rails will have a common ground. I suppose with some fairly extensive surgery you could turn it into a two-rail system but it would be rather a lot of work.

In my own experiences running 44 tonners hauling freight around tight curves, anything sharper than 10" and things tend to come uncoupled. This was true on the prototype as well--the really sharp street trackage was not used for freight, or when it was, only special boxcars designed for trolley/interurban service was used (with rounded ends, radial couplers, and short length) to manage the sharp trackage. Anything that hauled conventional freight cars needed more radius--in my own experience, 10-12" is sufficient.

Even a 44 tonner by itself will not do well on sharper than an 8" curve--again, from my own twisted experiments in super-sharp trolley curves. Most steeplecabs and interurbans couldn't do it either--except for the really short, lightweight steeplecabs, which are smaller than 44 tonners (the MRR Warehouse GE steeplecab kit, for example, has a shorter wheelbase than a Bachmann 44 tonner, so it can handle 6" curves the 44 tonner can't.)

[DSchmitt]

Here's another site that may be useful.

http://www.trolleyville.com/trolleyville.shtml

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cefinkjr


Now my question is: Will a GE 44 ton switcher and a 40' freight car be able to handle the 6 1/8" radius of ORR's turnouts? How about a 50' freight car ....
Chuck

Using normal couplers, no. Check out NMRA's page on recommended curves http://www.nmra.org/standards/rp-11.html also this one http://www.nmra.org/standards/rp-5_2.html
You'll need to use radial couplers for curvature this tight. You'll probably have to modify the ends of the car so the trucks can swivel enough. You might be able to get away with truck mouunted couplers if you modify the cars to allow the trucks and couplers to swivel enough.
Enjoy
Paul

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dinwitty

6 inches is tight, but sometimes PCC cars are doubled with couplings.
but they would use a wide radius coupling.

Orr's stuff is pretty much designed for traction use.
Write/email him if he will do custom work.

A single point switch isnt difficult to build, one less point..... :D

normally the non-frogged rail is the point rail IE right hand switch the moveable point is on the right hand side.

I'm thinking that interurban steeple cabs must have handled "steam road" cars through tight, single point turnouts. And, if a steeple cab could do it, why not a GE 44 tonner with its wheel base being shorter than most steeple cabs'? At least, that's my thinking on it. LIke I said; some experimentation is needed.

My memory, too, says the point would be on the non-frogged rail except that I don't think I'd have thought to describe it that clearly. Where my memory is failing me though is where I've seen single point turnouts. Have I only seen them in pictures or might I have seen one or more in service on Pittsburgh Railways when they still had a lot of street trackage down town?

Chuck

[dinwitty]

6 inches is tight, but sometimes PCC cars are doubled with couplings.

but they would use a wide radius coupling.

Orr's stuff is pretty much designed for traction use.

Write/email him if he will do custom work.

A single point switch isnt difficult to build, one less point..... :D

normally the non-frogged rail is the point rail IE right hand switch the moveable point is on the right hand side.

[cefinkjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

http://home.earthlink.net/~traxx/V-Other/V-Other.html

Scroll down to ORR Street Railway Track

Thank you, Sir. This is more than I was hoping to find. [bow]

ORR Street Railway Track even offers curved crossings to match their turnouts. I immediately thought of a situation where a right handed turnout (for example) leads immediately into a left handed curve so that the track crosses over the normal side of the turnout to reach an industry to the left of the track. Have I totally confused everyone with that description? Maybe. But I do recall seeing photographs of a situation like that. There may have been many in crowded industrial areas.

Now my question is: Will a GE 44 ton switcher and a 40' freight car be able to handle the 6 1/8" radius of ORR's turnouts? How about a 50' freight car (I have a strange weakness for 50' box cars; particularly single door cars.)? I suspect some experimentation with flex track may be in order.

Thanks again, Donald.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

The Proto 87 stores sell frog castings I believe. However, you can make the frog and point from rail stock with a file and patience. I have not made a single point turnout, but it should not be very hard to build.

[dinwitty]

single point turnouts will be way better on sharp curves, wider radius you may want 2 points...

It hedges on keeping the tread of the wheel on some support or actually the flange carried the weight while it turns into the curve, why girder rail was used.

[DSchmitt]

http://home.earthlink.net/~traxx/V-Other/V-Other.html

Scroll down to ORR Street Railway Track

[cefinkjr]

Anybody using any single point turnouts in HO? Even though I'm not modeling traction, I've always thought single point turnouts looked neat and would like to incorporate one (or two) in some planned street trackage.

Can I buy castings of the point and other parts or is this strictly a scratch building proposition? And, of course, does anyone know where I might find scale drawings of single point turnouts?

Thanks,
Chuck