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Replacement Trucks-Rivarossi Passenger Cars?

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Replacement Trucks-Rivarossi Passenger Cars?
Posted by newusername on Friday, May 06, 2005 11:44 AM
Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum. I recently acquired a set of Rivarossi "1930's era" 85' streamlined passenger cars. I want to replace the crummy trucks/wheels/couplers that came with these models. Does anyone know if someone makes a one-piece easy-to-replace set of trucks with wheels and coupler unit that accepts Kadee couplers? Thanks much! ... Al (You are welcome to reply directly to almodelrr@aol.com)
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Posted by Leon Silverman on Friday, May 06, 2005 12:19 PM
The single piece construction of the Rivarossi trucks is precisely the reason why these trucks are so crummy. This construction is called a "talgo" truck and will still derail when the train is backed up even if you replace the X2F couplers with Kadees or other similar type couplers. The coupler boxes have to either be body mounted (if you are going to operate on extremely large radii or allowed to rotate independtly of the trucks.
Just separating the couplers from the Rivarrossi trucks would make a big difference.
Mount the coupler box on a thin sheet of plastic or brass that is the same width as the coupler box and long enough to reach back to the bolster (the pivot point for the truck). Drill a hole in the end of the sheet where the bolster is and remount the truck. Lubricate this area so that the truck and coupler sheet do not bind. You might also want to glue a support bar under the coupler box that will allow the box to swing back and forth but not bend down if the car is pushed.
One other issue: The Rivorossi cars are all plastic and weigh far below the NMRA weight strandard. Any added weight, even if you don't achieve the standard of 1.5 ounces plus 1/2 ounce per inch, will make a significant improvement in the tracking characteristics of this model.
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Posted by nfmisso on Friday, May 06, 2005 12:41 PM
Al;

MCH offers snap in replacement knuckle couplers, make sure you get the kind with the metal knuckle coil springs. These are quite an improvement. Kadee offers a kit, that requires some effort and tools to install. You need drill and tap some holes.

IHC offers some nice replacement truckes, not inexpensive.

IHC and ReBoxx offer metal wheels that fit.

Leon's advice is very good.

I use the MCH couplers, add some wieght and free rolling metal wheels, and call it good enough. The models are not great representations of the prototype, and that is as much as I am willing to invest in them. Brachline, AMB, Brass Car Sides, etc are another matter altogether.
Nigel N&W in HO scale, 1950 - 1955 (..and some a bit newer too) Now in San Jose, California
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Posted by Don Gibson on Friday, May 06, 2005 2:28 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by newusername

Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum. I recently acquired a set of Rivarossi "1930's era" 85' streamlined passenger cars. I want to replace the crummy trucks/wheels/couplers that came with these models. Does anyone know if someone makes a one-piece easy-to-replace set of trucks with wheels and coupler unit that accepts Kadee couplers? Thanks much! ... Al

In a word, NO.

'EASY' is expensive. IHC makes some nice metal replacement trucks for $16 - $20 per car. Hello. Still there?? Then you add the appropriate KaDee couplers.

As both you and Leon have said, the trucks are the problem. 'CHEAP is for the bird's'.The rest of the car is decent, and worth the effort.

A WORK IN PROGRESS is the 'modeler's option. It involves replacing the 32" wheels, body mounting the couplers, and adding weight's - and add's approx. 8 hrs, and $6 per car plus any tools needed. Since you mentiones the word "EASY", I declined to further detail this.

First off, what is the size of your layout, and are you aware if 85' car's will even fit on it?
Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by Noah Hofrichter on Friday, May 06, 2005 2:38 PM
Don, Please do go on about the Body mounting, I got a 60 foot Rivarossi car recently that I want to body mount the couplers on. Please expain the details.

Noah
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Posted by Don Gibson on Friday, May 06, 2005 3:13 PM
Noah (Basement) Hofrichter

I have had little experience with Rivarossi's current 60' cars, and therefor am unqualified to give you any worthy answer's.

Body mounting any 60' car should not be much problem once 'coupler height' has been dealt with. If you have Rivarossi's 60' Baggage RPO car, THAT one I used Jaybee 110 or 111 coupler pads, Jaybee 36" wheels, and Kaydee #38 couplers were perfect.. A Line weight's brought it to 3 3/4oz.

Clip out the ersatz brake shoes, and apply a touch of teflon grease to the axle point's, and away it'll go.
Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 06, 2005 7:56 PM
Train Station Products offers replacement trucks that would work and look much better. Their trucks are Talgo as well but, can be easily converted to body mounted. A .40 inch pad on each end of the car and use The Coach Yard Darwin Universal Coupler box
Ch
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Posted by Virginian on Friday, May 06, 2005 8:52 PM
I have a small fleet of 85' Rivarossis and Bachmanns, most from the 70's and 80's, and all are equipped with the KD conversion couplers, and most have weight added to close to NMRA recommendations. None of them derail going forwards or backwards. There is nothing inherently wrong with truck mounted couplers, and in fact on these long cars I think they are an advantage on tighter radii.
The stock Riv wheels will lead to a quiet train :-), but if you replace them with metal ones you need to stick with 33" as anything bigger will hit the brakes. I kinda like the Riv trucks, and have purchased replacements when I damaged some.
What could have happened.... did.
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:55 AM
If you go witht he IHC wheels - be aware they make 2 different types. One is for the genuine Rivarossi cars, the other is for the IHC ones, and they don't work on the wrong cars.
The MCH coupler conversion is the way to go - heading the advice to get the metal knuckle spring type. The plastic whisker couplers just do NOT work worth a darn - MCH or EZMate or P2K.
Weight it very important. Since the cars come apart very easily, it's not hard to do. And you can keep it low - the underbody detail is open to the inside so you can fll those spaces with weight and still not obstruct possible interior detailing.
My father-in-law is a huge passenger train fan, and he has tons of these cars. With the MCH couplers and metal wheels, we've takes a 5 car train and BACKED it through #6 crossovers at ludicrous speed with nary a problem. No problems pulling them in the normal direction, either.

--Randy

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, May 07, 2005 11:43 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

Weight it very important. Since the cars come apart very easily, it's not hard to do. And you can keep it low - the underbody detail is open to the inside so you can fll those spaces with weight and still not obstruct possible interior detailing.


When adding weight just be certain to keep it even from side to side. Since the underbody detail openings are of different sizes, the car could lean to one side if they are all totally filled.
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Posted by Pennsy58 on Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:36 PM
I have a set of riv cars from the sixties. Besides switching to metal wheels and McHenry couplers I found that adding interiors drastically reduced derailment problems. Obviously the interiors added weight and this would explain the improvements. Havent weighed them to see where they stand to the recommended standard, but much better.

As far as the IHC wheels, yes there is a difference. The IHC type metal wheels were very loose in the pocket. The IHC RIv wheels work well.

As long as these cars are, I would be careful with body mounted couplers if you run the cars on a tight radius. May not be enough play for the bend.
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Posted by Don Gibson on Saturday, May 07, 2005 5:53 PM
The IHC wheels are 32" and some come with NEM axle's, which is probably why they were "very loose" . Rivarossi car's use NMRA axle's.

If you are going to the trouble of buying Metal wheel replacement's, make sure they are 36" and NMRA .For the record, Jaybee makes 36" replacement wheel's in both NMRA and NEM axle's and they are listed in Walthers' Catalog.

The heavier weight of metal wheels help trackability by keeping the unsprung weight and center of gravity low, which is one of the reason's I prefer Jaybee's wheel's.
Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by newusername on Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:12 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by psngrtrn

Train Station Products offers replacement trucks that would work and look much better. Their trucks are Talgo as well but, can be easily converted to body mounted.

Thanks for all the info, fellas. My layout is 5x9 with 18" radius curves, thus sounds like I should stay with talgo trucks. Can you give me the Train Station Products item number for these replacement trucks, and do you know if the coupler box on these accepts Kadee's? I couldn't find a website for Train Station Products and Walthers website had very few pictures of their items. Thanks again! ... Al
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:55 PM
I don't know too much about HO, but several months ago I was so proud of myself for saving money on a set of N scale Lima Santa Fe heavy weights I won on ebay for almost nothing,but when they came in, I hated the trucks on them, and replaced them with Arnold/Rivarossi trucks and they've worked fine ever since. But like I said, that's N scale...

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, May 07, 2005 10:57 PM
You WILL have to modify the brake shoe detail if you put scale 36" wheels in them. Rivarossi used the smaller size (scale 28" actually, not 32") probably because ont heir earlier cars they had HUGE flanges typical of European trains - so as not to appear overwhelmingly large, my gues is they used smaller wheels to offset the giant flange, like a lot of N scale equipment has done and still does. 36" wheels are more prototypically correct for most of the models, but the brake shoe detail will drag.

--Randy

Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:14 AM
I have the Rivarossi cars and the newer ones that IHC sales. I love the Rivarossi cars and the newer once are ok for the price. I had to replace the trucks for these cars also, but willing to pay $16 for the trucks. Lucky for me I live in the Philly area and can go to IHC for parts. IHC now do not sale parts anymore. What is a good trucks that I can buy.
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Posted by Don Gibson on Sunday, May 08, 2005 5:17 PM
The $20 IHC passenger metal trucks are available right now from Wathers for $16 accoding to Chuck Walsh. These are very good roller's, and with metal 32" wheels.

The older car's may need bolster relocation - where they pivot.
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Posted by Virginian on Monday, May 09, 2005 4:52 AM
If you do replace some of those Rivarossi trucks, I would be interested in buying a couple of pairs of 6 wheel or 4 wheel. Please email me. And I was FIRST ! :-)
What could have happened.... did.
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Posted by emdgp92 on Monday, October 10, 2005 12:51 PM
MR ran an article about putting Athearn trucks on these cars awhile back. However, I don't remember the issue.

If you want to use metal wheels with these cars, couldn't you just file back the brake shoe detail a bit?
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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, October 10, 2005 1:14 PM
I have an eleven car train of these cars that retain the Talgo coupler mountings: I used the Kadee conversion kits, #508 for four-wheel trucks, and refitted Kadee 36" wheelsets: this required removal of some material from the brake shoes. I also lowered the cars by filing down the bolster boss and replaced the mounting pins with screws. I made custom interiors for all of the cars and then added additional weight. Originally, each car was ballasted to about 12 oz., but I was concerned about wearing out the bearing surfaces in the soft plastic trucks and subsequently reduced this to about 8 oz. per car. They still track well around my 30" minimum radius curves, but they look a little ungainly. I intend to get rid of them, mainly because they're a bit too modern looking for my secondary mainline type of operation set in the mid-'30's.
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Posted by WSOR 3801 on Monday, October 10, 2005 2:20 PM
For the streamline cars, just chop off the the brakeshoe detail entirely. The cars have just been upgraded to Budd disk brakes :). The Budd system has no external parts, just big disks inboard (and hidden by) the wheels.

Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com

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Posted by miniwyo on Monday, October 10, 2005 4:27 PM
I just rehabbed 12 of those same 1930s streamlined cars this past week. I removed the trucks and thew away the truck pin, Inserted a piece of 1/8" & drilled and tapped it. I then re attached the trucks with a #2 screw and then made it tight enough to not wobble but loose enoufg to turn freely. I thne attached a piece of styrene to the underside of the car where a couple would go, depending on the car you may need different sizes, I also glued a piece on the inside of the car at the end to give a little more gripping power. I then drilled and tapped a hole to attach the coupler with. Then I replaced all the wheelsets and then trimmed things off the inside of the end of the truck to allow for turning without hitting the coupler box. VOILA thats all there is to it!

RJ

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:30 AM
I'm currently upgrading my HO Rivorossi passenger cars. Stripping and repainting the shells as well as painting and IHC interiors.

Dealing with the trucks and couplers is something I'm not looking forward to, however, when the time comes I'll refer to the info on this thread as well as the other related threads.

I won't buy any more Rivorossi's as the Walthers Budds are what I'll be focusing on, however, I have six Rivorossi's and plan on keeping them. With the skirts cut off, interior and exterior detailing, these cars look nice! I plan on metalizing the shells with the Alclad II Stainless steel.

The cars will be in SCL and Southern Railway lettering.


"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:24 AM
Train Station Products makes some awesome trucks at a reasonable price if you are willing to do a little work. They are kits, but if put together right look great. And I believe it is Jay Bee that makes a body mount coupler adapter for those cars. It was mentioned before to remove the brake detail from the trucks. I would highly recommend researching the prototype before you did that, epecially with the GSCs. Some still had shoes all the way until the "end" (mostly head-end cars). There were a lot of upgrades over the years. For example, Santa Fe upgraded most of their lightweight equipment with 41-CUDO or 41-CDO trucks (disk brakes), although you would still see 41-Ns (with brakeshoe and external cylinder) on their head-end stuff into the Amtrak days.

Edit: The Train Station Products trucks come with a talgo bolster that can easily be modified if you want to go with body mounts.
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:44 AM
CSmith,

Thanks for that tip on Train Station Products.

In my case, I'm not too worried about being "exactly" prototypical as long as I can capture the "overall flavor" of appearance. I'm modeling passenger trains in the 1960s which is why I cut off the skirts on Rivorossi cars. If these replacement trucks will work, I'll buy a set and try them out.

On the layout I'm building the curves well be 22" radius, so I'm debating as to whether to go body mount or Talgo. Don Gibson indicated on another thread that cars with body mounted couplers may yank talgo truck equipped Rivorossi cars off of the rails on curves. I would like to run my Walther Budds coupled to Rivorossi's, so that's what has me pondering. My Rivorossi's are weighted down with BB's in the floor's pockets.

High Greens

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:11 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

CSmith,

Thanks for that tip on Train Station Products.

In my case, I'm not too worried about being "exactly" prototypical as long as I can capture the "overall flavor" of appearance. I'm modeling passenger trains in the 1960s which is why I cut off the skirts on Rivorossi cars. If these replacement trucks will work, I'll buy a set and try them out.

On the layout I'm building the curves well be 22" radius, so I'm debating as to whether to go body mount or Talgo. Don Gibson indicated on another thread that cars with body mounted couplers may yank talgo truck equipped Rivorossi cars off of the rails on curves. I would like to run my Walther Budds coupled to Rivorossi's, so that's what has me pondering. My Rivorossi's are weighted down with BB's in the floor's pockets.

High Greens


I build a lot of passenger cars from the ground up and Train Station Products offers some great details, especially those core kits. For Santa Fe cars the ECW core kits are garbage. With body mount couplers an everything you should be able to make 22". I would test it out first. The only thing that I found with the Walther's passenger cars (the first run in particular) is that the diaphrams bind on tighter radius curves and can cause derailments. On the inside of the car are metal "springs" that provide the resistance for the diaphrams. The problem is that they provide too much resistance. You can ben those back a little so they aren't so tight. The newer diaphrams are much better in that there are plastic springs built into the diaphrams that provide a lot less resistance. I have been replacing all of mine with American Limited, primarily because of incorrect striker plates on the diaphrams provided with the kit.
Also there were wheel guage problems with the earlier runs that can cause derailments, especially on a tighter radius. I learned these two lessons the hard way.
Smitty
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:18 PM
The Rivorossi HO 85ft Budd coaches that I are the WWII era versions.  I would like to re-equip them with the 41-series trucks or something similar.  

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by Don Gibson on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:05 PM

RIVAROSSI 85' and IHC cars have problems:

1. They are too long for short curves.

2. They have 31" wheels

3, cheap plastic trucks.

3. Insufficient weight to follow the  the track.

4. Talgo (truck mounted) couplers.

ANSWERS cost money.

36" wheels raise the car, require modification, + sidefeame plastic is poor.  KD 'talgo' conversions are $$                                                                                                           Body mounting requires  skilled work - height - assembly.

BEST to sub IHC metal trucks - adds weight - good rolling - maintaign original height, replace couplers. Work + money.

ON THE CHEAP replace with McHenry couplers and set aside for looks, not running ability.

       

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:07 PM

Don,

Currently I have the shells removed on 4 of my cars.

I filled their floor pockets with BB shot pellets and smothered them with glue. What a difference!  

Just to try it out, I changed out the stock 31" wheels and compromised by installing P2K 33" wheels instead of 36" wheels.   So far these undercarriages roll much, much better than stock .  I know the prototypes used 36" wheels, but in this case the difference doesn't seem to be very noticeable. 

I will take the extra steps later and change out the trucks.  But for now it seems that once I get the bodies paint metalized and install the interiors I'll be able to run them at my club's layout along with my Walther's Budds.

As for the railroad name decals, I'll like to use a company whose stainless steel cars ran on SCL trains back in the  late 1960s. ( L&N, RF&P, Penn Central, Central of Georgia, and CB&Q)

 

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by TomDiehl on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:32 PM

 newusername wrote:

Thanks for all the info, fellas. My layout is 5x9 with 18" radius curves, thus sounds like I should stay with talgo trucks. Can you give me the Train Station Products item number for these replacement trucks, and do you know if the coupler box on these accepts Kadee's? I couldn't find a website for Train Station Products and Walthers website had very few pictures of their items. Thanks again! ... Al

With an 18 inch radius and this long of a car, I'd recommend against body mounting the couplers. The Kadee conversion kits (they make different ones for the 4 and 6 wheel trucks), with either Kadee or Proto 2000 36 inch wheelsets (see note above about trimming the brakeshoes) in the existing truck frames will do nicely until you're ready to move up to a wider minimum curve. I have several that I converted like this and still run on the club's 36 inch minimum radius with no problems. I even mix them with Rivarossi cars with body mounted couplers with no problems.

Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown

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