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Welcome to Jeffrey's Trackside Diner for January 2020: New York, N.Y. Locked

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  • Member since
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  • From: North Dakota
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Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 10:00 AM

LION ON TOP! LION ON TOP!

 

Wildebeests for All!

 

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 11:26 AM

The things that have always bothered me about electric cars have been the range and recharge times.  It's not bad for a few daily trips around town, but how about longer trips?

I used to go skiing.  It was about 180 miles each way.  I don't think they had charging stations at the mountain or along the way.  Does owning an electric mean having to own a gas car for longer trips?

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 11:32 AM

As battery technology advances quite rapidly, range won´t be an issue in a very short time. Most currently available vehicles easily manage to go 200 miles and beyond with a single charge and rapid charging in excess of 100KWh reduces the charging time to just enough time to visit the bathroom and have a cup of coffee (or vice versa).

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by CNCharlie on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 11:41 AM

Good Morning,

Another mild day here, about -7C today. 

Ray, congrats on the new car. Not many Teslas here. I think the range in the extreme cold we get and range in general not to mention the price is the reason. We are a long way from any other centres here. 

I got out my Rotary Plow in honour of the weather. It is an Athearn model into which I installed a decoder to control the blade speed. My layout is set in summer but it does need maintenace runs. There is a 'sign' on the side saying it is too wide for the Winnipeg train shed. I really doubt such a plow was ever here but who cares. 

The parts for my Hudson are on the way thanks to doctorwayne. Not looking forward to re-installing those tiny screws at the back of the cab but getting it running right will be worth it. 

Nothing planned for today except running the rotary plow. I'm using a consolidation to push it. I'll bet the real one was rather noisy. 

CN Charlie

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:00 PM

Tinplate Toddler

As battery technology advances quite rapidly, range won´t be an issue in a very short time. Most currently available vehicles easily manage to go 200 miles and beyond with a single charge and rapid charging in excess of 100KWh reduces the charging time to just enough time to visit the bathroom and have a cup of coffee (or vice versa).

Here in southern Delaware, we're not exactly out in the uncivilized frontier, but there are only a few charging stations.  Who pays for these?  Do they have credit card machines, or are they a service of the property owners to draw in customers?

If you charge at home, do you need special wiring like 50 amps or 220 volts, or can you just use a standard wall outlet, with or without a portable converter?

I still think electric-only cars have a while to wait until the infrastructure is built out to accommodate them.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by York1 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:08 PM

MisterBeasley
charging stations.  Who pays for these?  Do they have credit card machines, or are they a service of the property owners to draw in customers? If you charge at home, do you need special wiring like 50 amps or 220 volts, or can you just use a standard wall outlet, with or without a portable converter?

 

Take the following with a grain of salt.  I don't remember exactly the things I heard:

I asked my son-in-law about the car.  He said when you charge the car at a public station, there are several systems.  Some have a credit card slot.  Some read your car, and the car company pays the dealer that provides the power.

My daughter said the car will charge overnight in the garage using a 110 outlet, but it is slower.  The charging stations on the road will charge up to 90% (I think that's the number) in about a half-hour.  My daughter lives about 600 miles from us, and she said there are maps of where charging stations are located.  She said they won't drive the car here, it's just too far.

Driving this past summer, I noticed that quite a few hotels had charging stations in the hotel parking lots.  It is a growing trend, but I don't see it as widespread for at least a few years.

 

John  --  Saints Fan  

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:22 PM

Back in the good old days, department stores like Macy´s had charging stations in their garages, so the ladies could charge the batteries of their Baker Electric or Detroit Electric cars, while they were shopping.

Electric cars enjoyed a high degree of popularity in the early 1900s, due to their ease of handling and much greater reliability. There was no danger of breaking your thumb while trying to start your car.

Actually, the first car Ferdinand Porsche, the father of the Volkswagen bug, built was an electric car, called the Lohner-Porsche. It had an electric motors on the hubs of the front wheels, later on all 4 wheels. So the first 4WD car was a Porsche.

 

Just imagine where we would be today, if battery development hadn´t stopped when Henry Ford struck that secret deal with Rockefeller.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by howmus on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:52 PM

Howdy!

Range....  The car I am getting averages 320 miles range.  You can even charge anywhere on 110v.  Takes a while but it can be done.  At a supercharger location.  stop for lunch and come back out with a (at least close to) full charge.  Frankly with my volt it takes a lot less of my time to charge the car (about 20 seconds) then it does to stand and fill up the gas tank.....  You keep the car charged as much as possible. When I am home, the car os plugged in. You just have to think ahead and think differently.  Just filled up the gas tank of the Volt.  Took about 5 minutes and I had to drive out of my way to get to the gas station.  (I charge mostly at home.) The infrastructure is getting better.  The ways to get it done just need to get built.  You could drive on a super highway and charge the car as you drive.  The technology to do it is there, but not the superstructure.

MisterBeasley
Here in southern Delaware, we're not exactly out in the uncivilized frontier, but there are only a few charging stations. Who pays for these? Do they have credit card machines, or are they a service of the property owners to draw in customers?

 FYI. Most Automobile dealership today have chargers.  You can go online and find commercial charging stations in lots of places. Yes the stations are there to make a profit just like the gas stations.  There are 20 Chargepoint stations, which is just one brand, in the little state of Deleware.  Many, many more are being planned. There are groups of homeowners who have charging equipment (like myself) that will, as nessessary, help out people with a charge when needed.  I have a 16 Amp (240v) Clipper Creek charging station here at my house.  Geneva NY has a Tesla charger at the college plus several others at the safety building.  Anyone can use them, but you pay by credit card (usually done as part of an online service). I have a chargepoint card and it bills my credit card.

Way back at the beginning of the last century when gas engines were just getting popular, you had to buy gas at the drug store in a gallon glass jug and take to your horseless carriage and pour it in the gas tank...  If you ran out, then you sent someone to bring their horse and pull your machine to a drug store so you could get more (while they laughed at how stupid you were to even have something like that)  "That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced." - Scientific American, January 2, 1909.

...Times Change folks.  The people I have talked to that have the Tesla and other long range Electric cars seem to have no difficulty with getting a charge as they need it.  You plan ahead.  That's not a bad thing to do. Smile, Wink & Grin

Have a great day out there!

73

Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO

We'll get there sooner or later! 

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Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:21 PM

Tinplate Toddler
Just imagine where we would be today, if battery development hadn´t stopped when Henry Ford struck that secret deal with Rockefeller.

I have always been fascinated with what I consider one of the original "Hybrid" vehicles, the 1930 Alco-GE-Ingersoll-ESB tri-power locomotive.

 NYC_1528-DEs-3 by Edmund, on Flickr

New York Central tested one in 1928 and bought 40 more in 1930. Rock Island had one (I forgot avout this one). They could be run off the third rail or the 300 HP Ingersoll diesel (which would also charge the batteries) or the battery power.

Cleveland, Ohio was a center for several electric vehicle (mostly industrial types) builders. Elwell-Parker, Baker, Rauch & Lang, and maybe a few others I can't recall.

Recently, the shut-down Lordstown GM plant near me has been sold to a statrup EV manufacturer called Workhouse Group. They plan to make electric delivery vehicles (hoping for a large Postal Service contract).

I often wondered, considering these charging stations and battery costs, why wouldn't the electric car manufacturers standardize on a battery "package" that could quickly be swapped at a "service station". Similar to how you now swap your propane can, you would pull into a bay, similar to these "quick-lube" joints and they would pop a fully charged battery into your vehicle for either a flat fee or maybe you would "subscribe" to the service.

You own the vehicle but you "lease" the battery service. Never have to worry about the cost of replacement, it is all figured into the plan. Larger vehicles and trucks may require two or three "power-packs" but they are built to the same standard specs. Pretty much like a giant 9V battery. Swap it pit, plug it in.

Oh, this would take common sense, cooperation and practical thought. Guess that will never happen.

I hope everyone is doing well.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by herrinchoker on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:36 PM

Electric cars??? Mother drove one in 1916, in Brownsville Texas. Nothing new about em.

herrinchoker

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:22 PM

This is electric powered.  1080 12v. lead acid truck batteries.

 NS-999-Rose by Sun Lit Rosters, on Flickr

Imagin going to Fleet Farm to pick up new batteries. Surprise

Mike.

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Posted by moelarrycurly4 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:44 PM

Walmart here has EV charge station in the lot. look like gas pumps. 

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:45 PM

gmpullman
You own the vehicle but you "lease" the battery service. Never have to worry about the cost of replacement, it is all figured into the plan. Larger vehicles and trucks may require two or three "power-packs" but they are built to the same standard specs. Pretty much like a giant 9V battery. Swap it pit, plug it in. Oh, this would take common sense, cooperation and practical thought. Guess that will never happen.

I guess the cost of the infrastructure required would be overwhelming and the impact on car design as well.

Battery technology is advancing at a breathtaking speed right now and charging a car in 5 minutes is not far away. With a range of 300+ miles, that seems to be the end of ICE powered cars! Just imagine how much quieter our cities would become!

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by howmus on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 9:20 PM

Evenin' Folks!

Tinplate Toddler
Battery technology is advancing at a breathtaking speed right now and charging a car in 5 minutes is not far away. With a range of 300+ miles, that seems to be the end of ICE powered cars! Just imagine how much quieter our cities would become!

And the air easier to breath!

My youngest son is now living in England and is the director of Engaugement and Communications (or something like that) for The Faraday Institution.  Part of his job is to advise the British PM on Electrical Storage and Battery technology.  I have no idea how he got into my family.... LOL  He is one reason why I do know quite a lot about the subject.  He is estatic that I just bought the Tesla.

Tesla actually did play around with the idea of swapping batteries rather than charging them.  I don't know where they are with that today.  Most people don't know that in general the batteries will far outlive the life of the car.  Once the car is done for the batteries may have hundreds of thousands of cycles left.  They may be used to provide storage for electric in cities for use at night or during periods when Green electricity isn't being generated in quantites needed.  For my solar panels the unused power from them here just goes back into the grid and I get credit for that to pull an equal amount off the grid.  There are a couple communities not far away from where I live that have been using water power to do just that and the amount available stays even when more power is needed at certain times of day.  Lots of things can be used....

73

Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO

We'll get there sooner or later! 

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Posted by cudaken on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 10:34 PM

 Eveing Diners

 Flo, give the gang and I a Beer please and Dirk half a dog treat.

 Work Front was good, weather sucks!

 Work Made a extra $125.00 in spiff money. Big Smile Plus year end inventory is done and faxed! Cool Boy I am glad that is done. Yes

 Weather We are getting freezing rain and it is sticking. When I walked Dirk tonight I had to stay in the grass, no way I could walk on the street I would have fell and broke my caboose. Even the grass was slick, guess who will be walking Dirk for his morining pee? Whistling

 Ray Hope you love the Tesla type S. I think they start around $60,000.00 is that correct? In my luxury cars I don't want to hear anything but quite. What I like about electric car's is the power in right there! A 0 too 60 MPH under 5 seconds would put a smile on my faces! Yes my 68 Road Runner with a not stock 426 can do it but it comes with a heavy prices! There is a reason my friends Nicked Named her Miss Lumpy! You cam still hear the cam lope at 30 MPH?

 Thursday I will not have had a Cigarette for 9 months! Seems fitting on that day (depending on the weather) I will be sending the Mighty Broken PRR I1sa back to BLI again! Well this time it will be on there dime!

 Later Still none smoking Ken and Dirk say's Woof, Woof.

I hate Rust

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:47 AM

cudaken
Thursday I will not have had a Cigarette for 9 months!

That's fantastic Ken!! WowYeahThumbs UpBow

Dave

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Posted by GMTRacing on Thursday, January 23, 2020 7:21 AM

Way to go Ken! Rattie says woof back to Dirk.

Good Morning All,

   I view all this electric car stuff with a grain of salt (maybe should be a grain of lithium?). If I was getting a car now with the trips I do I would get a hybrid without question having rented some and being impressed. I am getting much less skeptical about full electrics simply because I see the infrastructure going in all over the place. Even in Roscoe, NY in the middle of nowhere there is a 6 station charging setup at the Roscoe Diner halfway between Watkins Glen and the city. The battery swapping thing was an option but rife with issues (like determining the number of cycles left on the swopped battery) not to mention the likelyhood of human error taking things apart and reattaching. The upfront costs of a 240V home charging station probably are not worth it unless you have multiple electrics in one household and need the speed the higher voltage brings to the recharging process. It's a big bright world out there. My conundrum of course is that I make my living doing IC motored race cars. Wonder if the kids will be hopping up electric motors in the future? There have been several electrics beyond the Porsche with motors in all 4 hubs. Not sure if it's more or less efficient that way but for sure the extra unsprung weight is not going to help handling in corners much. 

   Speaking of electrics, I have lots of Magnaflux to do this morning so I best get to it.   Ciao, J.R.

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Posted by howmus on Thursday, January 23, 2020 7:41 AM

Mornin' Folks!

cudaken
Ray Hope you love the Tesla type S. I think they start around $60,000.00 is that correct?

Hi Ken, no, I am getting the Model 3.  They start around $40,000.  The "S" is a bit out of my price range!!! LOL.  The "S" they claim with all wheel drive can do it in..... 2.4 seconds..... Musk says the 2020 Roadster can do it in 1.9 seconds.  Fastest production car ever made.  I believe the world record is now held by an electric car built by a bunch of college students in a class.  That is, I think, 1.3 seconds.  It achieves over 3 "G"s of force and they had to build a special harness to keep the driver from blacking out....  No thanks on that!

I'm still waiting on the final trade in value for the car I'm getting.  Should hear today.

Congrates on stopping smoking Ken!!!

73

Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO

We'll get there sooner or later! 

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Posted by Boiler-man on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:02 AM
Keep in mind that when looking at the range of these is based on no headlights, radio, or air con turned on and when using those items the range goes way down!!
Boilerman
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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:04 AM

Good Afternoon!

we had a little visitor in our attic this morning! The littel fellow woke me up in the wee hours of the day.

As cute as they look, they can do a lot of damage and make a heck of a noise!

GMTRacing
The upfront costs of a 240V home charging station probably are not worth it unless you have multiple electrics in one household and need the speed the higher voltage brings to the recharging process.

A "wallbox" costs somewhere between $400 to $800 and cut charging time down to a third when compared with charging from your 110V outlet. I´s a one time expense which certainly pays off! Charging a 60 KWh batterie with a speed of 3.7 KWh takes over 16 hrs. vs. round about 5.5 hrs with a wallbox charger.

My favourite sparky set of wheels would be a MG ZS E. It´s a Chinese made, but German engineered small SUV, which comes at a sticker price for a little over €30k, minus grands of about €6k. It´s a rather sensible vehicle, that does not come with all the gadgets and gimmicks you get in a Tesla, Jaguar i-Pace, Audi e-tron and the likes. I don´t need those and I don´t want to pay for them. Still, EVs are too expensive for most of the people.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:12 AM

Boiler-man
Keep in mind that when looking at the range of these is based on no headlights, radio, or air con turned on and when using those items the range goes way down!!

The ranges stated are under varying drive conditions, which includes A/C and headlights being turned on. In winter, the range goes down by anything between 10 to 20%, but if you pre-heat the car while it is still plugged in, you find the loss of range more on the lower side of the figures stated. Again, this is subject to change with the new generation of solid state batteries.

There are a lot of myths and fake news regarding EVs, which really is a shame. Anyone with basic knowledge of physics knows, that an electric motor is much more efficient than an ICE can ever be. An EV is also much less complex - an ICE has about 2,000 moving parts requiring manufacturing to the utmost tolerances, whereas an electric motor has less than 200 parts. An EV requires a lot less costly maintenance and will most likely be a lot more durable.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by howmus on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:30 AM

Me again....

Tinplate Toddler

 

 
Boiler-man
Keep in mind that when looking at the range of these is based on no headlights, radio, or air con turned on and when using those items the range goes way down!!

The ranges stated are under varying drive conditions, which includes A/C and headlights being turned on. In winter, the range goes down by anything between 10 to 20%, but if you pre-heat the car while it is still plugged in, you find the loss of range more on the lower side of the figures stated. Again, this is subject to change with the new generation of solid state batteries.

There are a lot of myths and fake news regarding EVs, which really is a shame. Anyone with basic knowledge of physics knows, that an electric motor is much more efficient than an ICE can ever be. An EV is also much less complex - an ICE has about 2,000 moving parts requiring manufacturing to the utmost tolerances, whereas an electric motor has less than 200 parts. An EV requires a lot less costly maintenance and will most likely be a lot more durable.

Absolutely right Ulrich!  BTW, the exact same thing happens in a fossel fueled vehicle.  In fact as far as heat and such is concerned, since you can have the heat on without using the motor to do it, you can heat an electric car in an emergency using a lot less energy!  You know what?  A hundred miles range is a hundred miles of range!!! Doesn't matter what fuel you are using... 

You are very right about the myths concerning electric vehicles!  Gee, I wonder where those might come from????   Hmmmmmmmmm!  Let me think about that for a while. LOL  Maybe we should go back to only having a horse and buggey?

BTW, when you factor in the savings over the life of the $40,000 car I am buying, the car is the equivalent of $34,600.  For instance:  I can go 40 miles in my Volt and use 10kW of Electricity.  Charging from my roof 10kW costs me about $1.20, or I can go 40 miles on a gallon of gas.  Lets see.....  What does that cost at the moment?  You do the math.  I was told by a salesman at the Chevy Dealer, "Well how are you going to get the car serviced???  I replied, "What service???"  You can get the tires rotated most anywhere.  Oh, and there are two places near me that do service, as needed, Teslas.

12

73

Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO

We'll get there sooner or later! 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:42 AM

Tinplate Toddler
an ICE has about 2,000 moving parts

.

I don't know what kind of engines you are thinking of, but 16 cylinder industrial diesel engines don't even have 25% that many moving parts.

.

Your number is incorrect.

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:47 AM

Tinplate Toddler
An EV requires a lot less costly maintenance and will most likely be a lot more durable.

This was mentioned in the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

They laid out all the parts that the average ICE used in its lifetime, oil and air and fuel filters, oil changes, transmission parts, etc. It covered a pretty large area!

My electric golf cart is going on twelve years old (bought it used, of course) and so far, the only maintenance has been a jug or two of distilled water. Sure glad I got an electric. 

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by York1 on Thursday, January 23, 2020 8:49 AM

Good morning.  More freezing rain this morning, so a layer of ice is forming over everything again.  Snow later this morning.  At least the weekend looks better.

Congratulations, Ken!  Did you ever think you could do it?

Stuck indoors again today.  I guess I have no excuse for not working on the layout.

See you guys later.

John  --  Saints Fan  

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:20 AM

Ed - I think the story behind the demise of the electric cars and the decades of stagnation in the development of modern EVs reads like a crime novel. Neither the traditional car industrie nor the oil industry has a keen interest in electric vehicles and will keep on lobbying for ICE cars as long as legislation will allow them to. There are a few countries that already have announce banning new ICE cars from 2025 or 2030 on, among them the oil-rich nation of Norway, where EVs make up more than 50% of the new car sales.

I doubt that any of the traditional car makers will survive  in the end. They are too much focussed on ICE technology to be able to make the turnaround to such a simple vehicle as an EV. VW, Audi, Daimler-Benz and BMW will soon be history, despite all the effort they now undertake to keep up with Tesla and Co. For Germany, this will mean the total economic collaps.

Talking of efficiency - most people are completely unaware that an electric vehicle requires less than 20% of the energy of an ICE car.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:25 AM

SeeYou190
I don't know what kind of engines you are thinking of, but 16 cylinder industrial diesel engines don't even have 25% that many moving parts.

That´s the wrong comparison - take a modern 4 cyl. turbo-charged direct injection Diesel engine and add the gearbox parts to the figure.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by CNCharlie on Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:02 AM

Good Morning,

Interesting discussion on electric cars. 

I think it will be a while before their sales are very high in Canada. I did a little research on the effects of cold on range. Some tests were conducted here and I don't mean in the cold we get in Winnipeg, they were done is southern Ontario. On very cold days, such as -20C, the range loss could be as much as 40%. Apparently the issue is the need for energy to heat the interior and also the increased friction in cold. In Winnipeg we can get down to -30C often and sometimes -40 so I still think range will be a major factor holding down sales here. 

As far as installing a 240V charging station, that assumes you have the room on your electrical panel. I know I don't so I would have to get a new larger panel installed and that would cost a lot. 

Hybrids are more popular but I wouldn't say very much so as they cost a lot more. 

All the electricity in my province  is hydro generated. A new large generating station is under construction up north. A lot of the power generated will be sold to the U.S. 

Time for more coffee. 

CN Charlie

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Posted by GMTRacing on Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:02 AM

well Ulrich - that's hardly fair. Also doesn't matter except for the people machining engine parts for a living. Now if we could only make cleaner electricity we'd be really getting somewhere

J.R.

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:30 AM

J.R. - it´s the price we have to pay for the stupidity and greed of those incompetent managers running the car industry. For more than two decades, the writing was on the wall and instead of adopting the upcoming change, they decided to defend their soon to be obsolete technolgy. For over a century, we have been depending on imported energy, from countries that are, to say the least, not very friendly to us, our belief and our culture. That´s coming to an end - the sooner the better.

I think we will have to develop a different understand of mobility. Cars will play a lesser role in long distance travelling in the future, and that will open up new opportunities for railroads.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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