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Need help with value of this item

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:27 AM

riogrande5761
By what definition? I think some could argue it's art. Often art immitates real things. Maybe a form of impressionistic art?

This is a cultural issue. I know that the folks at your end of the Big Pond have a rather liberal attitude towards what is art and what not. But in my neck of the woods, not all crafted things are considered art, even in a very loose interpretation of the word. Same goes for the use of the word "antique".

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 10:29 AM

Tinplate Toddler
Same goes for the use of the word "antique".

.

Antique has no meaning in the USA. It has become a synonym for "used".

.

-Kevin

.

Happily modeling the STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD located in a world of plausible nonsense set in August, 1954.

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 10:34 AM

 I think I must be actually from the opposite side of the pond then. I hold more to your definition of art than most around here.

 As for a presentation to an executive or something - that thought crossed my mind when I was writing my previous post, but then I took another look at it. No way in the hot place would such a crude thing be a presentation for a retring executive or even a highly valued engineer. Nor would that have been a shop apprentice job, not looking liek that. There still exist some locos built by the Reading Loco shop apprentices - fairly accurate in every detal, and everything works on them (which necessitates a few out of scale bits). There are also on display some smalle models made as gifts the president. They are very finely detailed models that just about anyone interested in trains would be pleased to have on display. This thing is no where near that in quality. 

 Perhaps somewhere out there are other things made by the same person - maybe not a train person, but the train is just one of many similar models handcrafted by this unknown person. Might be a farm tractor, or a truck, or automobile out there, made with similar techniques.

                             --Randy

 


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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 10:39 AM

SeeYou190
Antique has no meaning in the USA. It has become a synonym for "used".

My father, from the "old country", had a phrase that he used to describe such things.  It was pronounced something like zoot-beck.  Roughly translated it meant an expensive (or not), useless item, that took up space and collected dust.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:52 PM

maxman
 

My father, from the "old country", had a phrase that he used to describe such things.  It was pronounced something like zoot-beck.  Roughly translated it meant an expensive (or not), useless item, that took up space and collected dust. 

I resent that remark. I do not consider my layout a zoot-beck.   Super Angry

But, thanks for the definition. My wife is from the old country and constantly refers to my layout as a zoot-beck and I never knew what she was saying.  Laugh

Rich

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:59 PM

richhotrain
My wife is from the old country and constantly refers to my layout as a zoot-beck and I never knew what she was saying.

Really?  I don't believe that.  But if true, you didn't happen to marry an Armenian girl, did you?

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:49 PM

maxman
 
richhotrain
My wife is from the old country and constantly refers to my layout as a zoot-beck and I never knew what she was saying. 

Really?  I don't believe that.  But if true, you didn't happen to marry an Armenian girl, did you? 

Max, would I lie to you?  Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 3:44 PM

richhotrain
Max, would I lie to you?

Yes.

So you did marry an Armenian girl?

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, June 25, 2019 3:54 PM

maxman
 
richhotrain
Max, would I lie to you? 

Yes.

So you did marry an Armenian girl? 

LOL, no, I married an American girl.

Rich

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Posted by Trainman440 on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 9:31 PM

Doughless
 

Sure you can buy a CAD designed, perfectly tooled and assembled accurate model from a factory.....but anybody can have one of those if they want one.  The appeal of models as works of art diminishes tremendously once there is more than one exact copy.  Then over and over and over.

While a piece like this is one-of-a-kind and, therefore, makes it more valuable, you must keep in mind, this is made by an (probably) unproffesional. If a kid made a single model locomotive out of cardboard, it's also one-of-a-kind, however, not valuable. Similarly, if this $4500 engine was put together with, say, Elmer's school glue, and about to fall apart, It's not worth much. However, if it is well built, smooth rolling and sturdy, then the "this is the only one ever made" argument holds some weight. Just a little more. I wouldn't pay anything over $200 for it. (the same price I'd pay for a brass engine.)

Charles

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 10:12 PM

SeeYou190
que". . Antique has no meaning in the USA. It has becom

Or New Old Stock.

Larry

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:40 AM

SeeYou190
Tinplate Toddler
Same goes for the use of the word "antique".

-Kevin

 

Enjoying yourself there?

One could argue that in the US, many things have lost their meaning, but that doesn't mean you have to agree to abide by those meanings.  Remember when Clinton said, "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.  

I'd hazard there are some genearlly accepted meanings to the term Antique among those who specialize in such things and simply "used" is probably not what they haven in mind.

One accepted definition of Antique refers to something that is over 100 years old.

The Antique Automobile Club of America defines an antique car as over 25 years of age. ... 

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by angelob6660 on Thursday, June 27, 2019 12:57 PM

It's a nice locomotive. I'll probably pay $100 for my impulse purchase.

I rather have that NYC Hudson in Brass but I couldn't afford that price tag either.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, June 27, 2019 2:15 PM

Tinplate Toddler
 
riogrande5761
By what definition? I think some could argue it's art. Often art immitates real things. Maybe a form of impressionistic art? 

This is a cultural issue. I know that the folks at your end of the Big Pond have a rather liberal attitude towards what is art and what not. But in my neck of the woods, not all crafted things are considered art, even in a very loose interpretation of the word. Same goes for the use of the word "antique".

I get what you mean but this discussion centers around the new world "art", not the old world "art".  Stick out tongue 

And I'm not expecting you to go along with the liberal crap that stretches the meaning, often to the point of absurdity.  Remember the Maplethorpe controversy back around 30 years ago?

My wife is from the old world, in this case England, and when she moved to the good ol US of A about 8 years ago, she used to frequently say "only in America".  There was a British series a few years ago where some Brits travelled around the US and did features on various things they came across which essentially illustrated that phrase my wife used to utter.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by maxman on Thursday, June 27, 2019 2:40 PM

riogrande5761
when she moved to the good ol US of A about 8 years ago, she used to frequently say "only in America"

I was born here 72 years ago and I say that every morning after I read the paper.

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Posted by Erie1951 on Thursday, June 27, 2019 4:33 PM

Has anyone mentioned the term "folk art" yet? If you do buy it, make sure that you take it to Antiques Roadshow if it ever comes to your area. Smile, Wink & Grin

Russ

Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ.  Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Track fiddler on Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:45 PM

Good evening all.  What a beautiful evening it is.  I've been a little sparse lately.  How's everyone been doing?

 

[user="SeeYou190"]

I stopped at an antique store in Georgia and found this magnificent beauty.

 

 

 

I WANT IT!

 

The problem is that the seller has a price of $4,500.00 on it, which seems way out of line to me. Especially since there is no explanation of why such a high value. I think they just saw the number 4500 on the cab and said "hey, that sounds like a good price".

 

[/quote]

 

This Thread came about and jumped right down the rails.  Kevin I can completely relate to this kind of thing.

It looks like how you said,  "I WANT IT"  all in Caps,  the item spoke to you.  I am so familiar with that,  not often,  but when something does speak to me..... I can tell you I feel less bad when I paid too much then when I fumble on the price, go back and it's gone.

Don't get me wrong,  that beautiful piece of work is not worth $4,500 but it may have spoken to you.

You're probably right.  The antique dealer is not real interested in selling it.  We have a lot of antique dealers in Stillwater Minnesota.  Judy and I often go through these shops when we're there. 

The thing you got to remember, it's getting towards the end of the month and these merchants have to pay their monthly lease payment soon.  He could be running a little behind this month on sales.  Everytime I'm in these shops, I don't see tons of people buying stuff.

I would pay 350.00 for that easily.  If it spoke to me loud enough, I might go as high as 10% of his asking price.  Who knows, it's the end of the month, he might bite.

I look at it this way,  Judy and I have had a $100 fancy dinner many of times and have nothing left over when we're done.  Something you really like and pay $100 too much for, stays on the fireplace mantel for a long long timeWhistlingLaugh

TF

 

If I did get it,  I'd leave all the years of dust and Grime on it.  Makes it look even betterSmile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, June 28, 2019 5:49 AM

Track fiddler
I would pay 350.00 for that easily.  If it spoke to me loud enough, I might go as high as 10% of his asking price.  Who knows, it's the end of the month, he might bite.

.

I stopped at the store and offered $400.00, which seemed like a fair offer based on what I learned, and from your comments in here.

.

The seller could not be reached, so I headed down to Florida.

.

Final outcome is still pending I guess.

.

-Kevin

.

Happily modeling the STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD located in a world of plausible nonsense set in August, 1954.

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Posted by Doughless on Friday, June 28, 2019 9:17 AM

Trainman440

 

 
Doughless
 

Sure you can buy a CAD designed, perfectly tooled and assembled accurate model from a factory.....but anybody can have one of those if they want one.  The appeal of models as works of art diminishes tremendously once there is more than one exact copy.  Then over and over and over.

 

 

While a piece like this is one-of-a-kind and, therefore, makes it more valuable, you must keep in mind, this is made by an (probably) unproffesional. If a kid made a single model locomotive out of cardboard, it's also one-of-a-kind, however, not valuable. Similarly, if this $4500 engine was put together with, say, Elmer's school glue, and about to fall apart, It's not worth much. However, if it is well built, smooth rolling and sturdy, then the "this is the only one ever made" argument holds some weight. Just a little more. I wouldn't pay anything over $200 for it. (the same price I'd pay for a brass engine.)

Charles

 

Lots of ifs as to quality.  No way to judge from here.  Its folk art, and by its nature its probably one of a kind.  Folk art has value because its collectible as a genre, and that genre is different than a well engineered and assembled equal.  In some cases, "lower quality" makes it more desireable.  

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, June 28, 2019 5:41 PM

Well, to each their own.

It took me years to dissuade my children and other relatives from buying me that sort of stuff just because it is train related........even if it only costs $10 at the Goodwill or TJMaxx.

Art? I would rather not go there. But as a music fan I remind people all the time that "Classical Music" (some of which I like) was just the pop music of its day.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and value is set by the desire to own, and the desire to be rid.

If Kevin can obtain this item at a price that suits him, more power to him. I for one will not be in the bidding.....

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 9:00 PM

Well, I heard back from the seller today. He countered my $400.00 offer with an offer to sell at $4,250.00. Needless to say, we are too far apart.

.

He told me that he had the item in an antique auction in Atlanta last year with a $4,000.00 reserve and it was bid up to $3,700.00 and he would not lower the reserve to make that sale.

.

If that thing actually got bid to $3,700.00, and he did not take it, well that was his decision to make.

.

It is only worth $400.00 to me, and after talking to him, I kind of lost interest in the item completely.

.

So the saga ends.

.

-Kevin

.

Happily modeling the STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD located in a world of plausible nonsense set in August, 1954.

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Posted by tstage on Saturday, June 29, 2019 10:08 PM

SeeYou190
He told me that he had the item in an antique auction in Atlanta last year with a $4,000.00 reserve and it was bid up to $3,700.00 and he would not lower the reserve to make that sale.

Well, I would take that story with a grain of salt. Confused  More importantly, your $400 ahead in your bank account. Yes

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Saturday, June 29, 2019 10:26 PM

Kevin,

That´s a wise decision! For the price he is asking, you can get a Gauge One live steam USRA Light or Heavy Mikado made by Aster.

 

https://www.accucraftestore.com/g1-aster-mikado

These precision engineered beasts do not only look good, they work like a charm. However, live steam is highly addictive!

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, June 30, 2019 7:52 AM

tstage
Well, I would take that story with a grain of salt.

.

Yes, I take that story as "just a story" as well.

.

 

Tinplate Toddler
For the price he is asking, you can get a Gauge One live steam USRA Light or Heavy Mikado made by Aster.

.

Or I could have a lot of very nice things.

.

I would be willing to pay $4,000.00 to $8,000.00 for certain orginal paintings by Boris Vallejo, but those rarely are for sale and are truly works of art, and able to be insured as such.

.

.

Could you imagine what my insurance agency would say if I said that thing had an insurable value of $4,500.00?

.

-Kevin

.

Happily modeling the STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD located in a world of plausible nonsense set in August, 1954.

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Sunday, June 30, 2019 8:11 AM

I am afraid I am not much of an "artsy" character. I do like paintings, especially those of Turner, Sisley, Monet, Manet and Renoirs, but I don´tr thrive to own one. I´d never "invest" into a piece of art, hoping that it will eventually appreciate in value - once  I am dead.

If I had money to spare - it´ll go into model railroading!

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

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Posted by TBat55 on Sunday, June 30, 2019 8:26 AM

I think the seller is who made it.  $4500 for 150 hours of work. 

I would say $400, minus shipping cost of $100, minus cost of decorative steel display stand due to weight, minus insurance if it ever falls on someone.

A lot of people could make one of that quality, and far less weight. I believe it is a live steam project that was abandoned. 

Current scrap steel is ~$2 /100 pound, so $2 is the real value.

Terry

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Sunday, June 30, 2019 8:37 AM

TBat55
I believe it is a live steam project that was abandoned.

I doubt that - live steam engines require precision engineering and top notch machining!

Happy times!

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, June 30, 2019 8:38 AM

TBat55

I think the seller is who made it.  $4500 for 150 hours of work. 

I would say $400, minus shipping cost of $100, minus cost of decorative steel display stand due to weight, minus insurance if it ever falls on someone.

A lot of people could make one of that quality, and far less weight. I believe it is a live steam project that was abandoned. 

Current scrap steel is ~$2 a pound, so $200 is the real value.

 

Wow Terry, that is quite a crystal ball you have from one photo and one brief second hand conversation......

Sheldon

    

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Posted by TBat55 on Sunday, June 30, 2019 8:47 AM

Kevin said "any help would be appreciated".  Your reply is neither.

Terry

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, June 30, 2019 9:09 AM

TBat55
I believe it is a live steam project that was abandoned.

.

I think the same thing judging from the boiler and the frame. It might even have been a live steam kit of some sort.

.

It is a shame the seller has such an unreallistic price on it. It has a loveable quality to it, and very rarely does my wife like anything train related as a display piece.

.

-Kevin

.

Happily modeling the STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD located in a world of plausible nonsense set in August, 1954.

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