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Layout size - big vs complex - attempting to capture the immensity of the prototype

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, August 5, 2018 7:37 AM

WOW! That is quite a space. I love a blank canvas.

.

The celing looks a little low to me, but that might be the photo properties. I am 6' 7" tall, so ceilings are a big concern for me.

.

There is nothing like that here in Southwest Florida.

.

I am looking forward to updates.

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 5, 2018 7:54 AM

BRAKIE

Sheldon,If I had that much space I would build a point to point branch line or a more likely a point to point city industrial lead around the walls.

I look forward is seeing progress photos on your new layout.

 

Larry,

I visted a layout not far from me years ago where the guy has a point to point ISL that fills a space this size. It was a very nice layout.

BUT, I want mainline operation as well. So I will build what I have explained. 

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 5, 2018 8:00 AM

SeeYou190

WOW! That is quite a space. I love a blank canvas.

.

The celing looks a little low to me, but that might be the photo properties. I am 6' 7" tall, so ceilings are a big concern for me.

.

There is nothing like that here in Southwest Florida.

.

I am looking forward to updates.

.

-Kevin

.

 

Thank you, yes, I'm happy. 

The ceiling is a little low, slightly less than 8 feet, but no ductwork or piping in the way. The air conditioning is in the attic, the heat is hot water baseboard.

I'm only 6' tall, so it works fine for me, especially since I long ago lost all interest in multi decks.

The details of the track plan are coming along nicely.

Just a note to those of you in other parts of the country, basements like this are "typical" around here. MOST homes are built on basements here, many remain unfinished open spaces like this. This house was built in 1964, this space has always been used as storage, work shop, and utility space.

Maybe that is why so many of my modeler friends also have moderately large layouts. Even shared with utility equipment, sometimes washer and dryer (ours is up stairs), or even a family room, these basements often still provide 800 to 1500 sq ft spaces for layouts in the "average" home.

More later,

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, August 5, 2018 11:57 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Some photos of the new layout space:

 

 

Sheldon

 

Congratulations Sheldon.  Please keep us posted.

BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?

- Douglas

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Posted by ROBERT PETRICK on Sunday, August 5, 2018 12:33 PM

Hey Sheldon-

Okay, this is good. Progress!

Robert

LINK to SNSR Blog


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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 5, 2018 2:01 PM

Doughless

BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?

 

Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me.

 

Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 5, 2018 4:24 PM

7j43k

 

 
Doughless

BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?

 

 

 

Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me.

 

Ed

 

Yes, I will be fixing a few small things, and installing new lighting, etc.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, August 5, 2018 4:29 PM

Sheldon,

.

What is your plan for this project?

.

Do you have remodeling to do to the main house first, or do you get to jump right into your train room?

.

Do you plan to finish the whole room before you begin layout construction?

.

How much work does the layout room need? It looks really good in the pictures, but I know nothing about basements.

.

The fact that I am so far behind on my remodel schedule has me very frustrated at this point. My next step is new windows, but my travel schedule makes meeting with an installed very difficult right now.

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 5, 2018 6:36 PM

Kevin, 

The walls and floor are fine as is, maybe a fresh coat of paint. The walls are concrete block, the floor is concrete. There is no need for finished/drywall walls, or other flooring. Aisles can be carpeted after the layout is built.

I will most likely install a drop ceiling, but I will install it very close to the floor joists above, I have done that before.

And new lighting is a given.

The house above is move in ready for the most part. We are doing a few really simple things before we move in. And we do have some projects in mind, but they will wait until the other house is sold. But even those projects are simple enough.

Being in the construction business, none of this is difficult for me.

So as time allows, I can play in the basement pretty much right away.

What kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy?

Construction motto:

Fast, Good quality, Affordable, pick two, you cannot have all three......we typically go for the second two.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, August 5, 2018 7:09 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Construction motto: Fast, Good quality, Affordable, pick two, you cannot have all three......we typically go for the second two.

Reminds me of some of the best advice in medicine.  Diabetes, Cigarettes and legs, pick two.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, August 5, 2018 9:26 PM

7j43k

 

Doughless

BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?

 

 

 

Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me.

 

Ed

 

You must be from Georgia.

- Douglas

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, August 6, 2018 9:37 AM

Doughless

 

 
7j43k

 

Doughless

BTW, don't you love when they string Romex under the joists instead of through them?

 

 

 

Around here, that's viewed as an employment opportunity for people like me.

 

Ed

 

 

 

You must be from Georgia.

 

 

Must be a story there.  Nope.  

Oakland CA.

Where the electrical inspectors are fond of enforcing NEC 334.15C.  They typically also get huffy about ANY exposed romex below 8' above the floor.  Or the ground.

They are also fond of NEC 110.12 (neat and workmanlike).

 

Ed

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, August 6, 2018 10:37 AM

I was commenting more upon codes back in the day.  I think most everywhere current code demands romex (equivilent) be punched through the joists instead of stapled to the bottom of it or hanging.  If the homeowner wants to convert non living space to living space via drywall on the ceiling, they run the risk of punching a nail in the romex unless its away from the nailing surface.

My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO.  I hate old building codes.

- Douglas

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, August 6, 2018 11:16 AM

Doughless

I was commenting more upon codes back in the day.

My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO.  I hate old building codes.

 

 

I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement.

I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring.  Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought.

There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History

 

Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC.  When it shows, I'll see what it says. 

Ed 

 

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Posted by NittanyLion on Monday, August 6, 2018 1:16 PM

We're in the extreme early stages of house hunting and my stomach drops when I see a rat's nest of wiring going every which way under the joists in any part of the basement. I want my train room and she wants a finished laundry room. Welp. 

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, August 6, 2018 3:37 PM

If you find yourself afflicted with this problem, beyond the dropped ceiling that Sheldon is considering, you can also:

Put strips of 1/2" plywood on the bottom of the joists, between the romex "crossings".  Overlay that with 2 x 2's.  You can now legally attach sheetrock for your ceiling.  If you're going to get a permit, be sure to run this by the inspector first.

Or, of course, you can pull the romex back and run it through newly drilled holes in the joists.  Builds character!

 

Ed

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, August 6, 2018 4:53 PM

7j43k

 

 
Doughless

I was commenting more upon codes back in the day.

My basement is full of romex strung along the ceiling, rendering the space permanently nonliving space unless I install a drop ceiling or hire an electrician to punch it through the joists, which is a lot of work that should have been done when the house was built, IMO.  I hate old building codes.

 

 

 

 

I seriously doubt the NEC EVER allowed romex to be installed under joists in a basement.

I think you are the proud owner of non-permit wiring.  Or perhaps your inspector was incompetent or bought.

There is a terrific history of electrical wiring here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/18355180/Electrical-Wiring-History

 

Also, I just bought a copy of the 1947 NEC.  When it shows, I'll see what it says. 

Ed 

 

 

Its one room in the basement, but its not where the furnace is so it could be livable space if properly converted.

We go to open houses.  Two more house had the same thing.  A large room in the basement where all romex wires to wire the entire house come from the panel, about 20 of them, and across the joists until they can find a path within the basement ceiling to where they can run along the joists instead of across them.  The offending rooms where the romex crosses the joists ere good sized, about 18 by 12.

I think because they were "intended storage" and not living space, that type of construction was common around here....and I'm talking circa 1996.  Of course, a drop ceiling would not really interfere, but the thing looks half s'd with all the wires running along the ceiling.

- Douglas

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, August 6, 2018 5:41 PM

"IN UNFINISHED BASEMENTS AND CRAWL SPACES [crawl spaces added in 2008], ...cable run at angles with joists, ...[#10 and smaller] shall be run either through bored holes or on running boards."

There is no exception for intended storage.  Or any other use, for that matter.

Just because a new house was permitted and inspected doesn't necessarily mean anything.  A co-worker and I once had a contest to identify the most code violations in any of the boxes we had to open up to work in.  This for a relatively new house in beautiful Marin County.

Ed

 

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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, August 6, 2018 6:47 PM

Ed is correct. You can do this if you want sheetrock on the ceiling. Or as an alternative put furring strips between the wires and put steel plates over the wires. That is admissible too.

As a licensed contractor I am very familiar with all building codes.  The electrical code states any electrical wiring shall be a minimum of an inch and a quarter from any framing surface. Most electricians keep their wiring an inch and a half away from framing suface as exactly 1 inch and 1/4 spacing can fail an electrical inspection.

Unfortunately it is very common to see electrical wires stapled to the bottom of the rafters in most furnace/ utility rooms when they are classified as unfinished.

There's a fine line upon resale. These rooms still need to be classified as unfinished. Time and time again I see houses I am doing work in up for resale. 

Many realtors selling these houses are including the unfinished rooms square footage as habitable living space. Habitable living space reflects the price of the property...... I see it time and time again and it's a crying crock.Super AngryOff TopicWhistlingConfused

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, August 6, 2018 7:04 PM

And now folks, the wires in the picture that are running diagonally, are RG6 cable TV and phone wires, not romex...........they will be moved.......I too am an electrician.

Second, others can do what they like, and what codes allow, but I will not put drywall on a basement ceiling. It is just an invitation to have to rip a hole in it later for a plumbing or electrical repair or up grade.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, August 6, 2018 7:42 PM

For consideration by OP or others.  I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting.  The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height.

Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general.

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, August 6, 2018 8:18 PM

Doughless

For consideration by OP or others.  I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting.  The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height.

Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general.

 

Again, my plan is to install a drop ceiling, the house has hot water baseboard heat, so pipes go around various parts of the perimeter. Most of the heating pipes are up above the joists, or tucked neatly near the sill, but I will not cover them up, or other plumbing and electrical wires, with drywall.

I have not decided for sure yet, but I may want to build a valance above the layout. In which case I would build a "ceiling" inside the valance for the layout lighting, and install a drop ceiling over the aisles.

In any case, the mechanicals of the house will not be made inaccessable by such construction.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, August 6, 2018 8:36 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And now folks, the wires in the picture that are running diagonally, are RG6 cable TV and phone wires, not romex...........they will be moved.......I too am an electrician.

Second, others can do what they like, and what codes allow, but I will not put drywall on a basement ceiling. It is just an invitation to have to rip a hole in it later for a plumbing or electrical repair or up grade.

Sheldon

 

Good man I will side with that one.

Easy access.... it's not a matter of if there is a problem upstairs, it's a matter of when. I think like you think. It's amazing how many of my advised customers don't.Zip it!

I have installed microtrac suspended ceilings with Sandstone drift 2x2 recess inserts that look better than drywall anyway..... good plan good plan you have my blessingThumbs UpWink

PS. I didn't read this whole thread it's too darn long. Yes a good looking well done suspended ceiling in the basement is the way to go.

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, August 7, 2018 4:34 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
What kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy?

.

I am looking to replace the garbage windows that were installed in the house when it was built in 1987. During the late 1980s small windows were all the style, so that works in my favor lowering the price of everything.

.

The master bedroom window will be a soundproof double pane window with a "blackout" interior blind. I am going to sleep like a baby!

.

The remaining windows (the house only has six other windows) will be whatever is the least expensive way to get a Category 5 rated impact window. I am so sick of the shutters going on and off twice a year.

.

I am open to options in the train room, I really have not figured that one out yet. I would like a window AC unit in there so I can keep it climate controlled while the rest of the house is opened up. I also do not want the room to be a death trap in case of a fire, so I need a window to escape from if necessary.

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by jeep35 on Tuesday, August 7, 2018 5:34 PM

Sheldon,

I think you are "spot on". I think that large (or small) complex layouts are maintainence problems. Prototype railroads don't like complex trackwork because it is expensive to maintain. I believe you made the correct choice in a large layout but not an overly complex layout. By the way, when you were listing the things in you current home you won't have to deal with, it hit home with me. We have a pool, flowerbeds/landscaping, fences to maintain. I told my wife it's like living on a ranch. ALWAYS something to fix, paint or tend to. Best of luck with your new home.

Jim

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, August 7, 2018 7:29 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
Doughless

For consideration by OP or others.  I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting.  The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height.

Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general.

 

 

 

Again, my plan is to install a drop ceiling, the house has hot water baseboard heat, so pipes go around various parts of the perimeter. Most of the heating pipes are up above the joists, or tucked neatly near the sill, but I will not cover them up, or other plumbing and electrical wires, with drywall.

I have not decided for sure yet, but I may want to build a valance above the layout. In which case I would build a "ceiling" inside the valance for the layout lighting, and install a drop ceiling over the aisles.

In any case, the mechanicals of the house will not be made inaccessable by such construction.

Sheldon

 

Sheldon, I understand your preference for the drop ceiling, which I think would work and look great.

Judging from your response, you may have misread my immediate post as saying dryWALL, not dry Fall, a type of paint you may be aware of.

For those that aren't, dryfall (Dry Fall?) is a type of paint mainly used on ceilings where the mist and splatters dry quickly, on the way down, as to not drip or stain whatever it hits.  The dust gets swept up off the floor after the project's finished.

That would leave the ceiling open to all mechanicals, and the deep black paint makes the ceiling and clutter disappear, since it sits above the downward pointing lighting.

Just a thought for those who may not want any cover over their ceiling.

- Douglas

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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, August 7, 2018 9:01 PM

If you have an "open" ceiling, you have a LOT of surfaces to collect dust:  pipes, wiring, ducting.....

And there's no reason to assume it's all going to stay up there.  Not to mention possibly "stuff" coming through the subfloor gaps, if there are any.  A ceiling, either solid or dropped, will minimize dust.  

And, if it's white, make lighting more even and efficient.

 

Ed

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, August 7, 2018 9:13 PM

Doughless

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
Doughless

For consideration by OP or others.  I've seen black dryfall painted basement ceilings and they look great, especially when the black ceiling is in the shadows of the backside of the new lighting.  The ceiling virtually disappears, which seems to give the room extra height.

Not sure if it would produce dust over time, or having an open ceiling would be detrimental to a layout in general.

 

 

 

Again, my plan is to install a drop ceiling, the house has hot water baseboard heat, so pipes go around various parts of the perimeter. Most of the heating pipes are up above the joists, or tucked neatly near the sill, but I will not cover them up, or other plumbing and electrical wires, with drywall.

I have not decided for sure yet, but I may want to build a valance above the layout. In which case I would build a "ceiling" inside the valance for the layout lighting, and install a drop ceiling over the aisles.

In any case, the mechanicals of the house will not be made inaccessable by such construction.

Sheldon

 

 

 

Sheldon, I understand your preference for the drop ceiling, which I think would work and look great.

Judging from your response, you may have misread my immediate post as saying dryWALL, not dry Fall, a type of paint you may be aware of.

For those that aren't, dryfall (Dry Fall?) is a type of paint mainly used on ceilings where the mist and splatters dry quickly, on the way down, as to not drip or stain whatever it hits.  The dust gets swept up off the floor after the project's finished.

That would leave the ceiling open to all mechanicals, and the deep black paint makes the ceiling and clutter disappear, since it sits above the downward pointing lighting.

Just a thought for those who may not want any cover over their ceiling.

 

No, it is not something I am familiar with. Sounds like something you spray, not really the type of work we ever do.

We never spray paint interiors, personally, I consider spray painting drywall an inferior process intended to save time at the expense of quality.

I just recently purchased a sprayer to paint some cedar shutters, the jury is still out on its effectiveness.........

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, August 8, 2018 9:32 PM

SeeYou190

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
What kind of windows are you looking to replace? What kind of windows are you looking to buy?

 

.

I am looking to replace the garbage windows that were installed in the house when it was built in 1987. During the late 1980s small windows were all the style, so that works in my favor lowering the price of everything.

.

The master bedroom window will be a soundproof double pane window with a "blackout" interior blind. I am going to sleep like a baby!

.

The remaining windows (the house only has six other windows) will be whatever is the least expensive way to get a Category 5 rated impact window. I am so sick of the shutters going on and off twice a year.

.

I am open to options in the train room, I really have not figured that one out yet. I would like a window AC unit in there so I can keep it climate controlled while the rest of the house is opened up. I also do not want the room to be a death trap in case of a fire, so I need a window to escape from if necessary.

.

-Kevin

.

 

It's hard for me to imagine a housewith only 7 windows. My new house has 22, the big Queen Anne has 54.....

What kind of house is this? How is it built? What material are the current windows? Are they casements, double hung, sliders?

One of my favorite brands is Sierra Pacific. Pella and Marvin are good as well.

Or are you looking at stuff like vinyl replacement windows?

They vary a lot in quality and features.....and price.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, August 9, 2018 3:37 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 

It's hard for me to imagine a housewith only 7 windows. My new house has 22, the big Queen Anne has 54.....

What kind of house is this? How is it built? What material are the current windows? Are they casements, double hung, sliders?

It depends on how you count "windows".

When we built our current home 20 years ago, I still clearly recall our builder telling me that there were 44 windows in our home in response to my request to upgrade from Norco to Andersen. Said it would be hugely expensive to upgrade.

I believed him and decided to stick with Norco. Later, as I began to replace the inferior Norco windows, I realized how he counted 44 windows. There are lot fewer than 44 window "openings" cut into the walls, but I have casement windows with two or three "windows" in each opening in most rooms. Actual openings total 16.

Rich

Alton Junction

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