Being a dinosaur has some disadvantages like just now discovering "current keepers" or "keep alives". In the last week and with the help of friends, several of my locos now have current keepers. What a difference! I have 178 turnouts over 1400+ feet of track and all frogs are hot wired and track is in fine condition....but still locos do stall....or used to stall. If you have not yet heard of these "current keepers", look into them.
My question is why are these not standard on new locos? Even for an additional $30 per purchase, it seems like a great deal....and then of course used locos with this feature...even better!
HZ
Howard ZaneMy question is why are these not standard on new locos? Even for an additional $30 per purchase, it seems like a great deal....
Good question. I think this is an area that will evolve.
Of course, the current answer is that it adds $. So it depends on what the market will bear. If it added $1, a manufacturer (DCC loco and/or decoder manufacturer) would likely add it and others would follow if the buying shifted that way. Since it adds more $$, the manufacturers have not yet rushed to make the leap. But perhaps that will come if they can add a certain amount of less costly capacitance that does not take considerable space.
And decoder versions and features only get update so often, so maybe more of this will come sooner than later(?).
Other issues include how much the additional feature (and expense) are "needed". I have only added it to about 10% of my locos, so I like the optional aspect if pricey. I typically use LokSound Selects, about $85 IIRC, and I'd prefer not to add $30 to each of my locos. These are a pain to solder into tiny circuit board pads and LokSound would do well to add connector wiring.
Another issue is the "oomph" of the capacitance vs. the space requirement and what customers would want, which can involve the loco type (number of wheels in contact) and their typical track cleanliness & problem areas. The separate add-on Keep Alives & Current Keepers do take some significant room in HO. I think some TCS WowSounds have included keep alive feature and I wonder how the "oomph" (capacitance) vs. size impact vs. price is handled with those. Perhaps someone can add some info on those.
I do know that my first problem loco was a Genesis HO GP9 where I experimented and solved the issue with a (rather large) non-super capacitor from Radio Shack that was only 2200 uF if I recall. Not a lot compared to the uper-capacitor keep alives. That educated me that I would not always need the max improvement to be ok.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I've got a cute little brass GN gas-electric. As delivered, running on DC, it would stall out within a few inches. And the slower it ran, the sooner it happened. It picked up on two wheels on one truck. It wasn't the weight, because this guy is pretty heavy.
I installed DCC. And sound. And a "keep alive". It now never stalls.
Now, there's a LOT of room inside a gas electric. Especially one that is baggage only (it pulls a passenger trailer). Big plus there.
Oddly, the problem I had with the conversion was getting the right sound. Over at ESU, ALL their internal combustion engines are diesel. I finally found something just right at Soundtraxx--a twin gasoline engine. Just like my prototype.
That went well, so I put one into a P2K GP9 that I was converting to DCC/sound. That was an all-ESU job. And they have a very cute and teeny capacitor that is easy to find room for. I almost suspect I didn't need the cap (all wheel pickup), but it's in there now, and I ain't removing it.
Ed
I have installed a number of 'keep alives', or current keepers as Howard calls them, and I am totally sold on the concept. In particular, I love how they keep my tiny two axle critters running regardless of the track conditions. I use Loksound Micro Select decoders in my critters with Loksound 'Power Pack' keep alives. The Power Packs do not provide a lot of running time, but their small size allows them to fit where most capacitor systems wouldn't.
Here is an example on a Loksound Power Pack at work in my unfinished Grandt Line box cab. The box cab has a BullAnt drive installed from Hollywood Foundry. At about the 2:18 mark you can watch the box cab fall into the frog gap and pull itself back out. Without the Power Pack it would stall every time. (It had code 88 wheels, since replaced with code 110 so it no longer drops into the gap):
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Howard ZaneIf you have not yet heard of these "current keepers", look into them.
A yeah, it's hard not to have heard of them in the past several years.
The advantages of current keepers / keep alive are a no brainer "if" time and cost are of no matter.
My question is why are these not standard on new locos? Even for an additional $30 per purchase, it seems like a great deal...
The answer to why they are not standard is simply cost; it hasn't escaped many of us that manufacturers costs for new, better quality, engines are already pushing the stratosphere of our budgets, so makers of fine model engines may be reticent about adding another significant increase.
That said, I imagine keep alive / current keeper will be showing up more and more in the future. IIRC, ScaleTrains have already included it in some engines and Walthers might have listed it for a future run of switchers.
Sure they are worth it, but if you have 100 or 150 engines to outfit, the cost is $3,000 to set-up 100. Oh, and what if those loco's don't have decoders yet? Cost with decoders and keep alives is approaching 6 grand! Obviously if you have the disposable income of a pilot or ex-pilot, you see the benefit and make it so. The rest of us may find it more challenging to afford such a financial hit.
Even so, I expect the real advantages will drive many of us in that direction for sure, starting with switch engines or short wheel base engines and going on from there as funds and time allow.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Costs may come down as volume increases. There are some disadvantages, as the simple 2 wire types cause programming issues. The fancier 3 wire types used by Lenz and ESU don;t, but since they are more than just some supercapacitors and maybe a diode/resistor inrush limiter, they are more expensive.
While my layouts have been much simpler, I've never had a problem with stalling on non-powered frogs. Even on the club layout, the only real problem spots are the older modules which use short fitter pieces between the sections. Those fitter pieces seldom have power, even when fairly fresh joiners are used so stalling and headlight blinking is a frequent occurence. Almsot every train is double headed to keep it moving, not becuase it needs the power to pullt he train. Long modern steamers with pickups on both sides of the loco and tender can generally get past the dead spots just fine.
I have only one loco with a current keeper, the Walthers Plymouth switcher. Came from the factory that way. ANd makes me glad that I am otherwise using ESU decoders everywhere - while the current keeper concept is great, the thing also keeps spinning its wheels until the capacitor runs down, which can be a LONG time. Even when derails. I can power it up and then run it across my workbench several times like it was a windup toy. That's potentially dangerous if it runs across the layout and onto the floor. The ESU decoders, when used with their 3 wire keep alives, have a setting to limit just how long it will run on the stored energy, instead of going until it drains completely. Only needs a few seconds to get past a dead frog or a dirty piece of track.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Costs may come down as volume increases.
Economics 101 for sure.
There are some disadvantages, as the simple 2 wire types cause programming issues. The fancier 3 wire types used by Lenz and ESU don;t, but since they are more than just some supercapacitors and maybe a diode/resistor inrush limiter, they are more expensive.
Again, cost will be the factor in making them more common or wide spread.
As you mentioned also, good track design and best practices will minimize the need for making "keep alive" more of a necessity.
I am planning on using live frog turnouts as much as possible in a future layout and the RR I am modeling typically had power sets of many engines hauling a freight train so even in model form I expect to have 3 or 4 engines pulling many freight trains. With that many engines, I'd think stalling would be minimal.
Of course switch engines in yards or engines run as singles would benefit the most probably for the time and expense of keep alive.
- while the current keeper concept is great, the thing also keeps spinning its wheels until the capacitor runs down, which can be a LONG time. Even when derails. I can power it up and then run it across my workbench several times like it was a windup toy. That's potentially dangerous if it runs across the layout and onto the floor.
That's nuts. Yes, it sound like the ideal keep alive would continue to supply power for 2 or 3 second idealy to maintain running over a dirty spot.
As an example of built-in keep alive, this TCS WowSound has it on the motherboard of their 2-board (motherboard & decoder board) for, in this case, an Athearn F7. What interests me is that I do not see large supercapacitors (as in a separate Keep Alive or Current Keeper) that take a lot of space. Perhaps they are optimizing the space / cost / performance aspects to provide the modest help required for normally encountered issues on reasonable track, versus the ability to travel 2-3' on horribly fouled track. I do not see anything in the specs that gives a clue.
EDIT: I asked TCS tech fellow just now and the motherboard KA function has at least the capacity of the KA4s, so good for them!
http://tcsdcc.com/1770
peahrensWhat interests me is that I do not see large supercapacitors (as in a separate Keep Alive or Current Keeper) that take a lot of space.
rrbnsf The capacitors are on the underside of the board and end up kind of bracketing the flywheels.
The capacitors are on the underside of the board and end up kind of bracketing the flywheels.
Oh yeah, someone was talking about installing one of those recently and commented on how the caps take up the space on either side of the motor like you described. Creative solution for something that takes up a lot of space inside engine shells where space can be tight.
Dunno how that would be done in N-scale where space is really at a premium but hey, if a guy can fit an 8 channels of servos and a gyro into a 1:96 scale P51 and fly it as if by wire, maybe there is hope for N-scale keep alive in the future!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QwabcKUTuI
I think it is a selling point that will help increase the sales of who ever starts including them as standard equipment and will also increase the number of people who stay in the hobby. A lot of people get disappointed in model trains because of the poor performance of the current locomotives compared to other hobbies such as RC cars or plane which don’t stall like a electric train does. Video games don’t stall either. It just seems like a no brainer to make them standard on new locomotives. The company which does will get a lot of business and eventually everyone will have to because nobody wants to buy a locomotive which has trouble running.
I agree, the keep-alives can greatly enhance the hobby experience. I have a few steam locomotives with electrical pickup limitations, and adding keep-alives have made a huge difference. Adding extra power pickups to steam locos is one of the few aspects of the hobby that I really hate doing. I also hope they make the keep-alives a standard component on all decoders in the near future.
snjroy I agree, the keep-alives can greatly enhance the hobby experience.
I agree, the keep-alives can greatly enhance the hobby experience.
For sure. And it's toally logical that if I had the time and money to install them on all my loco', I surely would.
I'd say that keep alives on all loco's would elimiate the need for Dead Pool, er, Dead Rail, that some have been talking up lately.
And that way people with an already heavy investment into DCC wouldn't have to throw it all away to switch to a totally new system.
Hello all,
Personally I would rather have capacitors over sound in all new locomotives.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Paul:
Here is a clickable link to the TCS keep alive mother board:
The picture doesn't show them, but IIRC there are four capacitors on the bottom of the board, one on each corner. When the board is installed the capacitors fit between the flywheels and the truck towers.
I'm a DC guy. DCC is cool, but hasn't had enough to offer to make me want to switch. I'm not interested in sound. Enter "keep alive". Could it possibly be worth a grand, or even well over that, to convert to DCC, mainly to equip the lighter troublesome locos with those?
I have about 30-35 locos, including those waiting in project boxes to be added to the layout. I can doublehead the heavy road engines which then don't give any trouble with power pickup.
I have long insisted that eratic track/wheel contact is model railroading's absolute worst public enemy # 1, with whatever #2 is, trailing by a long distance. I have a weakness for small critter locos, plus a few light on their wheels small steamers. I dream of the day I don't have to thump the benchwork, or reach in and nudge.
You guys are already grinding down my resistance to make the switch, and DAVE!!! That video is extremely convincing!!!
I'm now in the hunt. I'll be looking into the particulars of different DCC brands. I guess I could start by reading up on posts in the electronics - DCC forums, huh? Perhaps a call to my favorite "real" LHS, 2 1/2 hours away...
Dan
SouthgateYou guys are already grinding down my resistance to make the switch, and DAVE!!! That video is extremely convincing!!!
Hi Dan:
Sorry for twisting your arm!
As far as I am concerned, it's not worth the bother to try to run critters without keep alives. I want to run my critters, not push them.
Since I am probably spending your money, I would make the following recommendations:
DCC system - If you don't want to spend a lot of money to start, buy an NCE Power Cab. If you decide to upgrade later, the Power Cab simply becomes an additional throttle for the higher powered NCE systems. A Power Cab will run 3 or 4 sound equipped locomotives quite nicely. If you plan on running multiple large consists right from the beginning, then buy an NCE Pro Cab 5 amp system.
The reason I recommend NCE is because the throttles are easy and intuitive to use. I have used both NCE and Digitrax. Digitrax is far less user friendly IMHO.
Decoders - Choose one brand and stick to it. The reason is that different decoder manufacturers use different functions and commands to run their decoders. If you have a bunch of different decoders like I do, you have to remember which command does what with each decoder. That is nearly impossible unless you spend hours memorizing which locomotive responds to which commands.
I have chosen ESU Loksound Select decoders as my standard, and eventually I will convert all of my locomotives to them when dollars permit. They are excellent decoders! They run perfectly right out of the box. You can adjust them if you want to, but I have only had one scratch built locomotive where I had to play with the speed tables, and I believe that was because I inadvertantly installed a six volt motor in it. By the way, it runs perfectly after tweaking the speed tables.
The box cab in the video has a Loksound Select Micro decoder with a Loksound Power Pack keep alive. Without any adjustments to the decoder, it takes the thing seven (7) seconds on speed step one to move from one tie to the next! That is way too slow to be realistic or useful, but it does demonstrate the capabilities of the Loksound Select decoders.
Just my worth.
Cheers!!
5761 What keeps that plane flying? Capacitors? Thats a long time! Wonder if they can be adapted for MR use?
Some words of caution I would offer: A current-keeper doesn't remove the need to keep your track clean! I have only one locomotive with a current keeper decoder with sound. After it was installed, tested and run for a while, it then sat for some weeks while I did other things. Next time of running the darn thing would intermittently not respond to commands from the throttle and the sound would cut out. Hmmm... what's going on this thing ran great last time I ran it!! So, I tried another locomotive w/o sound or current-keeper which stalled at the same places the new decoder acted flaky.
The track was dirty enough over several inches to interfere with the DCC commands, but the current keeper kept the wheels turning. Don't discard your track cleaning tools.
George V.
Thanks for the pointers, Dave. Since I'm a sole operator, and my layout isn't that big, I think an NCE power cab should do. Especially the easy to use part! And I'm glad to informed me about using one brand of decoder. I get confused between which of 2 cabs I'm using! (I wired and equipped for 2 cab, only to realize I'll never operate 2 simultaneously)
Does this ESU have decoders that aren't sound equipped? I have been around and seen sound equipped locos enough to know it's not something I'm interested in.
Thanks George, I know I'm not going to get away without good track hygene, especially in the naturally dry dusty high desert climate I live in. But even with just cleaned track, some critters are finicky.
Over a month ago, I decided to re sheetrock my backdrops. Everything but the track itself came off the layout. I made my improvements, and the mess you'd expect. Finally got it all back together. Cleaned all track, except one stretch I forgot. I had TWO coupled Athearn SD 9s stall there! (even after vacuuming, but not rail scrubbing)
My layout and club are hand laid. No need for keep alive. John Allen track cleaner helps.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
SouthgateDoes this ESU have decoders that aren't sound equipped?
Yes, They are called Lokpilots. Lok rhymes with Poke, not Lock, FYI
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Thanks, Henry, I'll look into those.
Rich: My track is Micro Engineering and Atlas (in staging) flextrack. All switches are hand laid with power frogs. Dust doesn't care. it eventually accumulates. I don't mind reasonable track maint. Remind me of what a John Allen track cleaner is? Probably seen it, but...
I didn't see any provision for keep alives (current keepers, stay alive) on ESU's website. Suggestions? Dan
richg1998My layout and club are hand laid. No need for keep alive.
Locomotives with intermittent pickup issues can be helped immensely with keep-alives, regardless of what type of track and turnouts you use. Things like old brass steam, my Walthers Sperry car, etc. Good track doesn't cure every electrical issue with a mechanism.
Rob Spangler
Dan:
Look under 'Accessories' lower down on the left side of the main page. ESU calls their keep alives 'Power Packs'.
http://www.esu.eu/en/products/accessories/
The prices I found on ECU were pretty discouraging. Looking at about 60 to 75 bucks per locomotive for decoder and stay alive, plus shiping.
I found a brand; DCC Concepts - Zen, that sounds far more affordable. Any thoughts?
Dan,
Which other websites did you check for pricing besides DCC Concepts? Litchfield and Tony's Train Exchange offer good pricing, if you haven't looked there already.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Yeah, I thought keep alive or choose the name, could be about $30 each.
I think ESU gets more money because their "keep alives" are smaller. I've got one of their small ones going into a switcher. In this case, ESU all the way.
Howard,
I started installing keep-alives several years ago when they first came out. Not all locos need them. Big wheelbase/articulated engines generally don’t need them. Where the “keepers” shine is in finicky, small brass steam. I do hope that the cost gets so low that do become standard on new stuff – especially for Blackstone HON3 and Spectrum small steam.
I have found the “keepers” to be quite effective at curing small hiccups and haven’t had any problems with the locos driving through barriers, off cliffs etc.... During my last open house I used a “keeper” equipped loco and found I didn’t need to clean track to run it (a first!!!) – I was stoked!!!
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site