I'm thinking that, when released on a grade that's x inches long at y% gradient, a "free rolling" car would roll to the bottom of the grade and z inches more on level track beyond the foot of the grade.
I checked the NMRA web site and found nothing along these lines. Does anyone have some numbers on this? I'd like to build a Conformity Test Track for our club and it ought to be able to verify that a car is or is not free rolling.
ChuckAllen, TX
This is an ex-Athearn Blue Box coach, re-done as a wooden express car. It has the older metal trucks, and weighs 8oz.The car is on a 2.9% grade, and the photo is a two hour and forty-five minute time lapse exposure....
This would not likely be considered a free-rolling car. This re-built Athearn Blue Box boxcar...
...weighing 7.5oz., runs on Walthers/Proto National B-1 trucks, and was placed at the top of a 2.5% grade in South Cayuga, at a point just a bit below the town's name on the sketch below...
The car was released (not pushed), and travelled downhill, across the Speed River...
...into the tunnel leading to Elfrida (not around the peninsula shown in the sketch)...
...and rolled out of the tunnel and into Elfrida (just into the grey area in the sketch) where the track levels out...
...the car continued rolling through Elfrida on level track....
...and out onto the bridge at Chippawa Creek, which is on a slight downgrade...
...and continued rolling across Indian Line (the road in the background, below), still on a slight downgrade...
...and then out onto the level track on the Maitland River Bridge...
...and thence into....
...and through...
Lowbanks.It then rolled around the curve, into Port Maitland, still on level track...
...past GERN Industries' warehouse...
...then past the bulk loading siloes at GERN...
...and finally came to a stop just short of the lift-out (which was, at the time, lifted-out)...
...at the entry to the room, a distance of approximately 65' from it's starting point.
I would consider this to be a fairly free-rolling car.
Wayne
Our club requirement is that a car roll the length of a 2% grade (about 50").
A previous requirement (which a member solemnly assured us was drawn from the specs of a prominent San Diego club) required said car to roll its own length on a two percent grade.
There are 3 tests that I have heard of.
Roll down 2% grade, some allow a nudge to start the car, other do not. Usually this is a typical minimum.
Roll down 1% grade (or even .5%). This is usually for people who want a really long train.
Place car on flat piece of glass and gently push the car across. The car passes if all wheels roll as opposed to skidding.
Really free rolling cars can be a problem if your layout is not dead level as they may roll when you don't want them to.
Pawul
at the club i belong to, there is a short test track with a grade that a car is expected to roll down. I think it's a 36" piece of flex track on a 1x4 with a extra piece of 1x4 under it on one end (2.1% = 100 * 0.75 / 36).
i have found that the truck tuner can significantly improve trucks.
but i have a car that rolls in spots on my flat layout. I certainly can't see the grade, nor intended there to be one. The problem is when i spot a car at a spur, it will roll off the end of the spur.
so while there may be a requirement that cars roll on a specified grade, I think there is such a thing as a car rolling too freely.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
cefinkjrI'm thinking that, when released on a grade that's x inches long at y% gradient, a "free rolling" car would roll to the bottom of the grade and z inches more on level track beyond the foot of the grade.
That's about right..A good free rolling car should be able to do that.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cefinkjr I'm thinking that, when released on a grade that's x inches long at y% gradient, a "free rolling" car would roll to the bottom of the grade and z inches more on level track beyond the foot of the grade. I checked the NMRA web site and found nothing along these lines. Does anyone have some numbers on this? I'd like to build a Conformity Test Track for our club and it ought to be able to verify that a car is or is not free rolling.
gregcbut i have a car that rolls in spots on my flat layout. I certainly can't see the grade, nor intended there to be one. The problem is when i spot a car at a spur, it will roll off the end of the spur. so while there may be a requirement that cars roll on a specified grade, I think there is such a thing as a car rolling too freely.
That's a problem I have, too.
To my knowledge, I laid this scrapyard spur on a flat and level surface, but it ended up with a minor grade. It was fine until I replaced the old (like 40 years old) plastic wheels with metal ones. When I would spot the cars at the end of the spur (bottom of the picture) they would roll all the way out to the main at the top. You can see the tuft of field grass I put between the ties to hold the cars and keep them from rolling.
I've also got some of the Kadee powerful under-track uncoupling magnets. With very free-rolling cars, I can't use the "delayed" uncoupling feature because the magnets are so strong that they pull the uncoupled cars right back over the magnet as I pull the engine back.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
doctorwayne This re-built Athearn Blue Box boxcar... ...weighing 7.5oz., runs on Walthers/Proto National B-1 trucks, and was placed at the top of a 2.5% grade in South Cayuga, at a point just a bit below the town's name on the sketch below... The car was released (not pushed), and travelled downhill, across the Speed River... ...into the tunnel leading to Elfrida (not around the peninsula shown in the sketch)... ...and rolled out of the tunnel and into Elfrida (just into the grey area in the sketch) where the track levels out... ...the car continued rolling through Elfrida on level track.... ...and out onto the bridge at Chippawa Creek, which is on a slight downgrade... ...and continued rolling across Indian Line (the road in the background, below), still on a slight downgrade... ...and then out onto the level track on the Maitland River Bridge... ...and thence into.... ...and through... Lowbanks.It then rolled around the curve, into Port Maitland, still on level track... ...past GERN Industries' warehouse... ...then past the bulk loading siloes at GERN... ...and finally came to a stop just short of the lift-out (which was, at the time, lifted-out)... ...at the entry to the room, a distance of approximately 65' from it's starting point. I would consider this to be a fairly free-rolling car. Wayne
This re-built Athearn Blue Box boxcar...
Wayne that shure some real "free rolling" Is it a Kadee Boxcar? Some great trucks and wheels on that one.
I have noticed that most of better free rolling equipment ttend to be Proto pieces.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Club I belong to uses the 2% grade rule.
I'd have to agree in both cases, but I still don't know what grade I should use on a Conformity Test Track.
Beautiful railroad, BTW.
The definition of "free rolling" for us more "seasoned" modelers is dependent on how well you remember the era of pre-Delrin, pre-Lindberg trucks. Before Lindberg it was an entirely different standard of comparison.
I still remember the first Lindberg freight car kit I built (a Santa Fe steel reefer) and compared to what else was around it was amazing in its free rolling abilities; if they were not the first to use Delrin plastic they were among the first. In fact, back when I still used horn hook couplers it was by no means an easy task to back up a switcher and couple on to that Lindberg car because it would roll before the spring on the horn hook coupler would yield.
So you ended up either chasing the car with the locomotive until the car hit a bumper or another car (or your finger), or you learned to slam the loco into the car. Ironically I could use that rolling ability as a crude aproximation of Kadee's delayed action uncoupling. I'd uncouple the Lindberg car on the main and if I was slow about it, I could carefully back that car into a siding and just pull away the engine without touching it. "How'd you do that?" my model railroad buddy would ask. Heh. A more innocent and playful time to be sure.
I am a bit ashamed to admit that when I first got that Lindberg car I'd sort of replicate the old opening of Cody's Office with it: shove it with my finger and see how far it could roll, with me walking ahead of it to switch turnouts and such. Now of course I am too much of an adult to even think of doing that. Plus walking faster than an HO freight car can roll has become a challenge ...
Varney, Mantua, Athearn, Roundhouse, Revell and such other cars came with trucks which were nowhere near as free rolling as Lindberg but we did not regard them as poor rolling; the most popular "after market" truck was Central Valley which rolled beautifully we thought (and looked great) but again, not as well as Lindberg's did. There were really poor rolling trucks out there - the old Red Balls come to mind, and a make of trucks where the sideframes and bolsters were rough and somewhat oversized sand castings. Maybe a fellow geezer can remind me what make that was. Awful stuff, possibly pre WWII.
Athearn switched over to Delrin in the 60s I think, but many LHSs had the older blue box kits still in inventory and the kit on the shelf might have had the older all-metal trucks (most with real springs, but some with that odd shaped rubber piece that was a stand in for springs). They were actually considered reasonably free rolling at the time, but would not be now.
Then I think Mantua/Tyco made the switch to Delrin and even had an MR ad showing how much longer a train their F9 could pull using their new trucks. But again before Lindberg nobody complained that Mantua trucks were not free rolling enough.
Dave Nelson
Wayne,
Love your explanation. Sense of humor and fun..... Thanks for taking the time to put that together.....
Does free rolling really need to be defined beyond a certain point (clubs? maybe yes)?? I will say that "free rolling' trucks (however you define them) help quite a bit when it comes to climbing grades and overall operational reliability and smoothness.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
MisterBeasley gregc but i have a car that rolls in spots on my flat layout. I certainly can't see the grade, nor intended there to be one. The problem is when i spot a car at a spur, it will roll off the end of the spur. so while there may be a requirement that cars roll on a specified grade, I think there is such a thing as a car rolling too freely. That's a problem I have, too. To my knowledge, I laid this scrapyard spur on a flat and level surface, but it ended up with a minor grade. It was fine until I replaced the old (like 40 years old) plastic wheels with metal ones. When I would spot the cars at the end of the spur (bottom of the picture) they would roll all the way out to the main at the top. You can see the tuft of field grass I put between the ties to hold the cars and keep them from rolling. I've also got some of the Kadee powerful under-track uncoupling magnets. With very free-rolling cars, I can't use the "delayed" uncoupling feature because the magnets are so strong that they pull the uncoupled cars right back over the magnet as I pull the engine back.
gregc but i have a car that rolls in spots on my flat layout. I certainly can't see the grade, nor intended there to be one. The problem is when i spot a car at a spur, it will roll off the end of the spur. so while there may be a requirement that cars roll on a specified grade, I think there is such a thing as a car rolling too freely.
Spotting cars on a grade, many times however slight, can be a problem. We had a few sidings on the old layout that had some grade to them. Years ago before the use of metal wheels and better rolling stock, this may not have been an issue. The problem was solved by placing a series of "bristles" monofiliment line drilled and glued between the rails (some have used thin bronze wire, but they can give you a nasty poke). These were just tall enough to contact the axle but wouldn't impede the placement of rolling over to spot cars. You may need to figure the average car placements and where to place the filiments. Some longer sidings where you may spot at a few different industries, you may need them at multiple places.
Cars that are very free rolling are a problem.
.
My problem has manifested itself in my caboose fleet. All my cabooses are brass models. I have installed Ticky caboose trucks on all od these. This is because the plastic wheels and sideframes eliminate the possibility of intermittend dhort circuits.
Unfortunately (for me), these Ticky trucks roll very freely.
I use Kadee #308 under track magnets, and these are powerful enough to pull the caboose forward as it approaches, cause slack in the coupler, and then have an accidental uncoupling. The only manet part on any of my rolling stock is the uncoupler pin. No steel axles, weights, or hardware is allowed. That #308 uncoupler is powerful enough to draw on the pin and cause the uncoupling.
I have tried different axles in the Ticky trucks, but not been able to find a combination that provides enough drag. I tried adding brass wipers, but that was a temporary fix bacuase they ate into the plastic axles.
In N scale Micro-Trains makes a truck restraining spring to combat this issue.
The only grade on my layout will be into branch line staging, five car train length maximum. On the rest of the layout it will be level running with 14 car maximum train lengths.
Free rolling is a problem for me. I do not want runaways on spurs or accidental uncouplings.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
MisterBeasley gregc but i have a car that rolls in spots on my flat layout. I certainly can't see the grade, nor intended there to be one. The problem is when i spot a car at a spur, it will roll off the end of the spur. so while there may be a requirement that cars roll on a specified grade, I think there is such a thing as a car rolling too freely. That's a problem I have, too.
I had a problem a few weeks ago with a slight grade on an industrial lead. I needed to leave a tank car on that lead while I pulled others from the track where the tank car was to be spotted. But when I shoved it in the clear (with delayed uncoupling), it wouldn't stay there; it just followed me back out. I finally drafted a Corvette that was waiting at a grade crossing to hold the tank car back. (Sorry 'bout that, Corvette fans.)
I'm told that the grade on that lead has been eliminated (by shoring up that part of the railroad) but I'm prepared for the next runaway: I bought some old-fashioned pink rubber erasers and narrowed them to fit between HO rails. They're heavy enough to stop most cars, the rubber keeps them from sliding on the ties, and their color makes it harder for me to forget that I put them there. Biggest problem with them is remembering which pocket of my "operating" vest they're in. I think I paid less than $2 for a package of three.
Dave
Your mention of Lindberg reminded me of a time when their trucks were first available (I think before Lindberg's cars). I had replaced the original trucks under a freight car with Lindbergs and put the car in a friend's yard that was thought to be flat. That car quickly found the low spot in the middle of the yard.
cefinkjrput the car in a friend's yard that was thought to be flat. That car quickly found the low spot in the middle of the yard.
So called "bowl" yards are and were prototypical. The layout owner was a better modeler than he knew!
The official definition:
Anything over a 1% grade will start moving on its own if it is free rolling.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
To solve the freerolling car rolling down grade from where it's been spotted either have a working coupler on a bump stop and couple the car(s) to it, or using a switch motor or such have a pin come up through the rails OR a wire or something that goes across a rail to act as chuck.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
did you see the low-tech solution posted above
MisterBeasley You can see the tuft of field grass I put between the ties to hold the cars and keep them from rolling.
You can see the tuft of field grass I put between the ties to hold the cars and keep them from rolling.
Well with simple kinematics, an understanding of kinetic energy, angular momentum, and an idea of the coefficient of friction involved between the rails and the wheels we can calculate all we need to know about the movement of a car downhill, even calculating its speed after it collides with any cars further down line... Sorry I just wrapped up a physics class, I couldn't resist making the joke.
That's another great idea.
Longer trains = need for more free rolling stock. I personally am going to push mine to the tops of free rolling, which will cost more time and money than the reasonable "freerollage" that already exists, but I crave long trains.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
Has anyone thought of taking a toothpick got some Vaseline (petroleum jelly) and put a small dot on the "bearing" bezels on the trucks? Why? To reduce friction between the axle and truck.
NWP SWPHas anyone thought of taking a toothpick got some Vaseline (petroleum jelly) and put a small dot on the "bearing" bezels on the trucks?
Vaseline is a very bad idea.
It is great for automatic transmission assembly, but other than that one application it should be avoided for use as a lubricant.
Almost anything else is a better option.
How's this?
It used to lubricate o-rings on pool equipment, it's basically the same as the WS stuff but half the price, Vaseline is probably a horrible idea now that I'm thinking about it, it is a gunk magnet and tends to run over time.